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K9 Conservationists was THRILLED to have the amazing Lauren Wendt of Momentum K9 temporarily join our team to help out in Texas on ocelot surveys. This episode covers many of the challenges and lessons learned on a particularly tricky project. Be sure to listen to our last episode with James and Lisanne for background on ocelots in Texas.
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Transcript (AI-Generated)
Kayla Fratt 00:00
Hello and welcome to the K9Conservationists podcast where, we are positively obsessed with conservation detection dogs. Join us every other Tuesday to talk about detection training, canine welfare, conservation biology and everything in between. I’m Kayla Fratt, one of three co founders of K9Conservationists. We train dogs to detect data for researchers, NGOs and agencies, and today, as promised, I’m talking to Lauren Wendt about our project with ocelots in South Texas. We’re going to talk a little bit more about the dog training and how Lauren got herself and the dogs ready for the project, and then some stories from the field itself. So Lauren, it’s kind of crazy. I haven’t had you on the podcast before, given how long we’ve known each other, but welcome to the show. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your your dogs and your business before we jump into everything? Sure.
Lauren Wendt 00:55
Thanks for having me. So yeah, Finn and Benny are my two working Labradors, who will get into some more details in a bit. And then I have a golden retriever Dutch Shepherd, who’s sort of a failed working dog. But honestly, in the past few months, the work I’ve been or the training I’ve been doing with her, I’m kind of like, oh, man, you may have come around now that you’re fully mature, and I’m like, maybe I could get you on a project one day, and then I’m raising a lab puppy for a working placement, and she’s seven months old and super fun. So yeah, I own and run momentum canine. I like focusing on the conservation, dog world stuff. That’s where my passion lies, but I do all sorts of other fun training in dog sports as well.
Kayla Fratt 01:49
Yeah, and you and I know each other. We used to be COVID co workers back in the day, and you’re definitely someone I consider a mentor in the field. So it’s exciting to finally have gotten to work together, and as we kind of talked about in the last episode with James and Lisanne, we ended up working with you as the handler trainer for this project with ocelots in Texas. If you haven’t listened to that episode already, I would really recommend going back and listening to it. It gives a ton of background on this project and ocelots and their status in Texas, and it’s really interesting. So Lauren, when we first reached out to you, can you tell us a little bit about Finn and Benny and like their backgrounds and what you were thinking about as far as preparing them for this project and getting ready for it? Yeah,
Lauren Wendt 02:32
so Benny is a Labrador. He’ll be nine in January, and he actually, I got him at 16 months old, and he was my police canine when I was a detective with Washington Fish and Wildlife police. And so I did that with him. He was trained on a bunch of endangered species products, and then from there, we’ve done a bunch of conservation project as well, scat, invasive plants. So he’s got a lot of projects under his belt. And Finn will be eight in November, and I got her as a puppy, and I did disaster search and rescue work with her, initially for a few years, and when I got into the conservation dog world full time. I transitioned her as well. So she also had a number of conservation projects under her belt. So as we’ll probably discuss, this definitely, I don’t think is a project for first time dog like being their first project. So it was nice that I had these two dogs that have quite a bit of experience on, you know, not exactly the same type of project, but similar ones. Yeah,
Kayla Fratt 03:49
absolutely. And I think that was something that, like within Heather and Rachel and I, we were all discussing, as we hinted at in the last episode. You know, we got this inquiry. It was definitely a project we wanted to work on and a relationship we wanted to build, but none of the three of us had the ability to go work on this project, and we’re really keen on hiring our students and people who have been in our Patreon and like helping them kind of ladder up in their careers. And we were just looking at this project and looking at kind of where everyone that we know of like where their skill sets were at, and we’re just like, Man, this doesn’t feel like a project that we should ask someone who even has worked a couple seasons on a wind farm to go do and just jump the jump up. So why don’t you tell us, maybe, like, highlight one project that tells us a little bit about some of the experience that Finn and or Benny has had. And then we’ll talk about some of the differences about this project and what made it unique.
Lauren Wendt 04:48
Yeah, so they both been on a number of different scat projects. They both worked on San Joaquin kit box scat, which, you know there was on those projects. That’s where we were. There weren’t a lot of scats to be found. So they both had experience in projects where they’re searching for long periods of time without finding anything. And they they’re okay with that. Both of them have, you know, their hunt drive is high enough where that’s and it’s reinforcing enough for them to you know, their motivation remains high, even hours on end, and then just projects where, you know, some invasive plant, projects where we’re in pretty thick vegetation. And I knew they, they are both dogs who would push through, like physically push through and get into, you know, tight, uncomfortable areas. So, yeah, those are probably two, two projects where I knew, hey, we’ve done this, so I was confident that we could go down there and be able to to do the job.
Kayla Fratt 05:57
Yeah, yeah. Because, as again, we hinted at with James and Lisanne, like it’s dense, it’s thorny, it’s hot, and not a lot of finds over the course of a month. I just re listened to the episode with them, and it was 21 over the course of a month, which probably came out to an average of one a day. Yeah,
Lauren Wendt 06:17
we actually had, well, we had 21 survey days and 21 scat. So yes, average one scat a day, but there were days where, you know, we’d find two or three, and then days where we wouldn’t find any. Yeah, yeah,
Kayla Fratt 06:30
yeah, that checks out. So yeah, let’s think back and full disclosure as well. We you and I have already recorded this episode, and the audio didn’t come through, so we’re now trying to record this episode. Oh, six months or more after you finished this project, about six months as much as you can remember, what were some of the things you did to prepare the dogs on the non odor side, and then we had some interesting challenges as well from the odor side. And I think part of the reason I like this case study for every all of our listeners, is it highlights a lot of the challenges that can come up in conservation specific work. So yeah, talk environmental, non odor related, and then we’ll get into
Lauren Wendt 07:13
odor Sure. So we currently live up on the north coast of California, where it’s typically between 50 and 70 degrees year round, so it doesn’t get very hot. And even before that, we were living in western Washington, so still pretty moderate climate. And we’re going down to South Texas, where it’s very hot and humid. So one of my priorities was to make sure that they were in good shape physically. So I did a lot of running and biking with them in the warmest parts of the day, which for us during that time of year was still probably only like 60 degrees. I would also I have dog treadmill at my house in my office, and so I turned the heater on and then put them on the treadmill. You know, we did actually like fitness, strength training stuff too. So just trying and we do, like, on the bike, we’re up to, you know, 20 kilometers. You know, we weren’t going fast, but they were at a fast trot. And, you know, going into the project, we were estimating that we do 10 kilometers a day. So I was like, hmm, if I can double that, then even when we are in a warmer, more humid climate, maybe they, they would be okay, yeah. So just Yeah, focusing on kind of their physical fitness and cardio. Yeah,
Kayla Fratt 08:42
I know one of the things I’ve been thinking about. So one of the very exciting things about this project is they have asked us to come back and we’re gonna do more work with them, which is very exciting. And this time, it’ll be barley and Scotty going down and working with Heather on the project. And I’ve actually been thinking about just trying to find barley a foster in Texas, or SoCal for a couple weeks leading up to the project, and just getting him down as close to the heat as possible for a couple weeks ahead of time, because now we’re going down again in January, February and like December in Oregon, it’s going to be similarly challenging to Get the heat. Yeah,
Lauren Wendt 09:21
I was lucky in that I was in Texas near Austin for the week leading up to the project for a conference. So Finn and Benny did have about five, five sort of acclimation days where I would do short, you know, training sessions with them and putting out training scats, but yeah, just trying to get them as ready as we can, given our Yeah, where we where we live.
Kayla Fratt 09:49
Yeah, it’s challenging. And I know Yeah, again, I think Heather is planning on going down for several days before the project starts, and just getting the dogs as much time as possible. But. Yeah, it’s tricky. So now let’s talk training samples. So neither Finn nor Benny were previously trained on Ocelot. Were either of them trained on Bobcat before this? Or no, no, yeah. So Joe, yeah. So totally No. And we had some challenges with some sample acquisition, so why don’t you talk us through what you ended up having available to train the dogs with, and maybe then we’ll riff a little bit on some of the challenges associated with what was available. Sure,
Lauren Wendt 10:25
and I feel like, as with most conservation projects, this is often one of the biggest hurdles, is getting samples for training. So we started out with some samples from Central America that had been, I think, collected for a couple of years and stored, you know, in a freezer and a Mylar bag or glass jar. And so that’s what I had to start with. So we started there. We We did have some Bobcat samples from Texas, so that that was nice on the bobcat side of things, and also the the samples that we did start with, we didn’t have that many, so I did use, get sent tubes, in kind of conjunction with the actual samples, just to preserve the samples as much as as we could. And then eventually, the project partners were able to send us Ocelot scan scat samples from the population that we are going to be monitoring. And so I think I had maybe four or five scat samples. And they were, although they had been from the previous year, you know, they were in little plastic files which had been stored in freezers. So, you know, we, we did the best we could with what we had. But, yeah, it’s always seems like that’s the on these type of projects. That’s it’s a challenge for us.
Kayla Fratt 12:03
It is, yeah, because, kind of, by definition, you’re usually calling in the scat dogs because you’re having a hard time getting the scat. And there’s no Ocelot scat section on Amazon, you know, there’s even, like, side canine and some of these other specialty stores, or, you know, places where you can get pseudo, like they don’t have pseudo available for this sort of stuff, even with, you know, issues with pseudo or concerns with pseudo aside. Yeah, it’s tough. And you know, for people who maybe are a little newer, you know, why don’t we talk a little bit about some of the potential issues with, like, only having four samples, with them being from different populations, with them being frozen plastic. You know, there’s a lot of things that we’ve named that people might not realize. Why that’s so much of a problem.
Lauren Wendt 12:49
Yeah, that’s a good point. So, you know, ideally we want the dog to understand it is the odor of this OSCE up population in South Texas. And when you have these samples that are stored, you know, in Mylar bags or plastic vials or or glass jars, you can get more or less your scat sample being contaminated, and it could take on the odor of of these other things. So there’s a contamination concern. But then also, if we want the dogs to find all Ocelot scat, but we’re only training on, you know, four scat samples that are maybe from all female adults, you know, the dog may not readily generalize to other like ages or sexes of of the species that we’re trying to look for, so the more variation that we can have in that aspect is good. And then, yeah, the way you store your samples is really important. But in this case, being the first project like this in the US, we just had to go with what, what was available. And I think, you know, that was something on the ground, talking with James, you know, it’s like, hey, collecting these, let’s, let’s come up kind of with a loose protocol on storing these in hopes and now we know that the project’s going to continue. So, you know, having better samples to train new dogs. Yeah, this
Kayla Fratt 14:37
project definitely inspired us to we now have a little PDF that we will send people right away when they contact us, if they’re asking us about a species we’re not already trained on. Is like, hey, just as we’re even discussing this, like, we want you to have this, because whether you work with us, or you go with a different company, or you don’t go with dogs at all, it doesn’t hurt for you to know how to collect these and like, we’ve gone as far. Now with like, sending little care packages with like Mylar bags for project partners to make sure that they have the ability to gather scats. And yeah, there was a lot of kind of unique things with the timing of this one where that wasn’t possible, even if we had had that idea. But it’s, yeah, it’s common to kind of end up with these subpar training samples. And it’s amazing how well the dogs do often do in generalizing, but it’s definitely not ideal. And I know we’ve talked about this kind of ad nauseam with some of my episodes about Guatemala, where, like, you know, we were handed basically fossilized, super duper dehydrated scats. And that was a really hard generalization leap for niffler to make to fresh. Yeah, yeah. And they were all kind of contaminated with each other because they’ve been stored in our bags. Oh, boy, there’s barley one moment, one of the things you know, again, talking about this idea of only having four samples, and as far as we know, they might have been for, or they were from four adult females, if you can think of like a pixelated picture of an ocelot, and you’ve only got, like a green square, a yellow square, a black square and another green square. You have no idea what that is showing. But the more pictures, the more pixels that you can add to that to kind of make it clear. Okay, you can see it’s a spotted jungle cap. But is it a servo or a juggler or an ocelot? Who knows? And then you know, you add more and more, and now you can start seeing, okay, it looks like it’s probably either a margay or an ocelot. And then maybe get enough samples into that picture and enough pixels in that you can actually tell the difference, if you’re someone who knows the difference between an ocelot and a margay, which many of us probably aren’t. But the point being like, you want to have enough examples that the dog really has an understanding of your population. And you know, again, we’ve talked before on the show about how zoo animals can be a little sub optimal, because they might be neutered, they might be on birth control, they might be on antibiotics, they might be eating chicken, right? All sorts of potential concerns with their diet. But again, hopefully the dogs are able to generalize. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about how it went once you started training and Did anything come up in that early training phase,
Lauren Wendt 17:14
the dogs both seemed, you know, with the training samples I had, again, they’re they’re pretty good at this at this point, with numerous projects under their belt. So they picked it up pretty quickly. And I was able to, you know, go from the lineup imprinting exercises that I do with them when I’m training new odors, to moving it out to kind of like real world as well as real as the north coast of California gets to Texas. So I didn’t run into, you know, any big hurdles there with them. I think it was just, you know, for them, getting on, on the ground, and dealing with some of the things that we we didn’t quite anticipate ahead of time, as with wildlife and other other issues that that came up actually, on the very first day, which we can talk about if you want, so, you know, going to South Texas, there’s, you know, we were worried about, there’s rattlesnakes and so, so many ticks and, you know, so the dogs were in these snake I don’t know if it’s right to call them snake proof, but more like snake, maybe snake bite resistant, a vest and like thing on their neck. And they were, they were in and booties, because everything down there has has thorns. And both my dogs, you know, most of the projects is they worked on, they’ve been, they’ve been off leash, and they’re reliable. They’ve got really good recalls, and they typically don’t, don’t chase things. And so I was working Finn on on the very first day, and it was pretty thick, and she was maybe 2030 yards for me, but I already couldn’t, couldn’t see her, and I heard some commotion, and then I heard her bark, like a, like a playful bark, which still isn’t normal for her. And then I heard some, like squealing. And at this point, I’m already, I’m recalling her, and she comes back, you know, pretty, pretty quickly, and but she looks terrified, and I look down and she’s she’s bleeding from her back, back leg, and then very shortly behind her, there’s a javelina chasing her. And luckily, on the first day, you know, James was was with me, and the same and another person. And from the ranch we were working on. And so we’re able to scare the javelina off pretty quickly, but that cut our first survey day a bit short. Then did have to go to the vet and get a couple couple staples to close up the wound in her leg. She was fine. She was able to get back. I think she had like, two week recovery period. But you know, that was, you know, the first day, and it was like, Oh yeah, Javelin is Javi? No,
Kayla Fratt 20:32
we all got on a call right after this. Yeah, huh, yeah. We had a couple safety calls where we talked about animals and not a one of us, not a one of us thought of Javelin as Yeah. So we actually now have like a list. One of the questions we ask potential clients is like, Hey, can you just, can we walk through all the animals that are bigger than a bread box and or venomous? Because I we might have identified javelins as a problem, had someone said the word at some point. And for people who maybe don’t know, they’re kind of think of a smallish wild boar. If you know what a peccary is, they’re really similar to that, but like, yeah, hairy, weird looking, mean pig that travels in groups.
Lauren Wendt 21:18
Yeah, and talking to some of the vets down there, you know, they’re like, Javelin is are no joke. They will go after dogs and they they’re like, you’re lucky. She only had the last reaction on her on her back leg. Typically, the dogs are in much worse shape, yeah, than that. So, so yeah. So we all hopped on a call and thought of, Okay, what else can we do to mitigate this and lessen the chance of this this happening as we move forward? And so we decided the dogs would work on a long line, which, you know, if you’re a handler, most handlers, it’s just, you know, it’s a pain, especially in really thick vegetation, and kind of, no matter how well you handle the line, it’s just inevitable. It’s going to get it’s going to get tangled, you know, and it does limit the range that the dog’s going to search away from you. And then James had the job of having a cowbell and ringing it constantly for the rest of the 20 survey days. And I do think that is annoying, as it was probably more so for him than me. I do think that helped. You know, the dogs, the dogs had a bell on, but their bell only makes so much noise. It
Kayla Fratt 22:43
doesn’t, it’s not much.
Lauren Wendt 22:45
So we didn’t have any other incidents. We saw a few more javelina and, you know, other wildlife, but typically they were going away from us, and I think a lot of that was due to the cowbell. Yeah.
Kayla Fratt 23:04
And I know that’s something that now, as we’re thinking about sending barley and Scotty down, like one of the things on barleys training list is now I’m going to have to, I’m going to prove him on a cowbell and make sure that he doesn’t have a problem working with someone banging a cowbell nearby. I don’t expect it’ll be a problem for him, which is actually the main reason he’s going down instead of niffler, because niffler, I feel a little bit less confident, and we’ll probably still do the training for him, just in case this project happens a third time. But yeah, and it’s great that Finn and Benny were able to just kind of work through that immediate
Lauren Wendt 23:40
surprise, like they didn’t have any. You know, I haven’t trained them around a cowbell. Why would I? So, yeah, they didn’t have any.
Kayla Fratt 23:50
Oh, shit. Can your dog detect ocelotscat While you ring a cowbell to scare off javelin? That’s like, who thinks of this? Right? Right? Well, it’s funny. I think you and I talked about this previously as well. Like, one of the things that’s interesting, you know, again, we’re all really glad that Finn’s okay. And all in all, like we work in natural areas, it’s almost surprising that between you and I, I think this is the only animal interaction we’ve actually had that’s gone this poorly. And given how not bad it was overall, it’s funny how it was still like emotionally really hard. And I think there is something about, you know, we talk about this in the dog bite world, in the dog aggression world, like a child getting a bite from a dog that is really minor is much more emotionally upsetting than if they fall off a swing set. And I think similarly, Had this been like, a barbed wire incident, we wouldn’t have necessarily taken as big of a step back and, like, reassessed our safety protocols, but because it came from a javelina, then everyone was like, Oh my God, you know, like, we’ve really got to think about this. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but it is an interesting kind of psychological phenomenon. Yeah,
Lauren Wendt 25:00
yeah. I will say, you know, going into this project, you know, we, we contacted vets in in the area to see, you know, are you 24 hour? What do you have, rattlesnake, antiven, and do you know, what services do you provide? And, you know, I had, I had all the addresses and phone numbers in my in my field notebook. So, you know, we kind of mentally prepared for something happening which in the moment. And that was another thing, you know, just another shout out for, please train with your first aid kit. Open it up. Know where everything is, because I was able to get and and practice on your dogs as well, so that they’re comfortable with you putting all this weird stuff on them. So I luckily had done that with Finn and so I was able to get, you know, the bleeding stopped really quickly, and kind of, even though this was the first day that the four of us that were there have even, like, really known each other. The communication was really smooth. We were able to get her to the truck, and someone was already on the phone with the vet, saying what happened and how long we’re, you know, what our drive time was, and everything. So I was really, you know, happy with with how everyone responded to the situation. But I think that comes back to, you know, training for it and mentally preparing for things like that, even though no one wants them to happen. Feel like, if you’re in the field long enough, something is going to happen. Yeah, absolutely.
Kayla Fratt 26:35
I mean, and whether it’s something as kind of dramatic as a javelina bite or not, something is going to happen. I think every year, someone on our team has a dog with a paw laceration, or, you know, barley ripped one of his wrist paw pads almost clean in half this year, and had to get part of it semi surgically removed, and then was able to go back to work the next day, which is just, it’s amazing what the vets will sign off on and what the dogs are able to work through with proper wound care and whatnot. But, yeah, it’s going to happen like i This is why we carry first aid kits and why we do the training. You know, we do everything we can to keep ourselves so the dog safe. But it, yeah, it’s, it’s somewhat inevitable to have something like this, and you just try to make sure that you’re a, ready, B, mitigating the risk and yeah, C, hoping that it’s, yeah, it’s something minor and like, good news that Finn had such a good recall too, because maybe if she hadn’t had such a good recall, it would have gotten worse, right, right, right, yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of elements to that. So yeah, what else kind of came up for you all in the field? Did you have any kind of particularly exciting finds, anything that was weird or surprising to you out in the field?
Lauren Wendt 27:59
Oh, I think you know the just it was, it was fun to see just how thick the vegetation got and how willing the dogs were to push into that and there were many, many times where James and I are on our hands and knees trying to follow the dogs into these really thick patches of vegetation, because that’s probably going to be the most likely place an ocelot is going to be hence find the scat. So, yeah, you know that was, that was good to see. And I think it was, you know, surprising to James, like, oh yeah. They just go the dogs. At least buy dogs. They just went right in. Like, I didn’t really have to ask, ask them. It was probably harder to, like, get them to come out and stop searching them. Hey, go in there and search, yeah. And then, you know, a lot of these types of projects, you have transects that, and there’s, there’s Benny, hey buddy, you know there were transects on a map, and then you get on the ground. And again, this being the first year this project was was done, we got on the ground, went, Oh, the transect on the map is, is not actually reasonable to do. And so luckily, you know, we we had the freedom to to adjust the transect. And then, you know, we had thought, okay, the dogs would do, or the transect would be, you know, 10 kilometers a day, but just with the heat, and probably even more so the humidity, you know, I think we probably average seven or so kilometers a day. You know, it was slow going, especially being on a long line. And, you know, by about 1010, o’clock, it was. Just too hot to keep the dogs going. So, you know, being able to make those adjustments and having the freedom to do so was was really nice.
Kayla Fratt 30:11
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s one of the things, like also talking to you after this project, like this project was the first time that we’ve sent someone else out on something. And we had a lot of good lessons learned about, you know, kind of client communication, like, interesting how, I think when we first talked to James, I was like, yeah, the dogs can probably do a maximum of 10 kilometers a day. And that very quickly turned into, okay, great. So the goal is 10 kilometers a day, yeah? And it’s like, oh, okay, yeah. That totally makes sense, that that’s what he’s heard given what I said, but that’s maybe that means we need to adjust how we how we say these things and write them out. And we’ve been, we’re constantly tweaking those, like client education pamphlets and whatever that we’re giving people to make sure, yeah, and so far we’ve, we’ve honestly had lovely experiences with, obviously, James and Lisa, and we’re awesome. But everyone we’ve worked with so far through canon conservationists has been really respectful and understanding of the dogs and what they need. So I don’t mean to imply that at all. It’s they’ve all been great. But you know, for planning, you know, if we tell them 10 kilometers, and that’s the number they get in their head, then they figure, okay, we can drop them here and pick them up with the truck here. And then, you know, when things on the ground are different, it can be challenging to adjust. So, yeah,
Lauren Wendt 31:25
yeah. And I think as far as, like, interesting things that we came I mean, so Benny had a couple indications, like, in really thick patches of thorny scrub bush, and then it was like, you know, I, I’d have to pull him out, and then be like, James, he kind of alerted, and I’d like point to the to the spot, and then it was just, you know, trying to figure out, okay, well, where is, where is? It was a bit, a bit challenging, you know, it was cool. We, we didn’t come across any rattlesnakes, which is probably a good thing. We did come across a very beautiful Texas Indigo and snake and some tortoises, which are really cool. The dogs out there very interesting as well. So, yeah, I was just, I’d never been to South Texas before, so it’s, it is beautiful. It’s hot and humid, and as many ticks were, it still was. It was a super cool location, super cool project to be a part of.
Kayla Fratt 32:31
Yeah, no, and I’m really grateful that we get to send another team back and continue getting to work with with this group, because they’re just doing such cool work. Well, we, we’re gonna keep this episode kind of short. I planned my day poor late, basically, and Lauren and I have to cut it off. So Lauren, do you want to tell us where people can find you and what services you offer in case they’re interested in learning more from you or want some help with using your brain and experience preparing for some big projects, sure.
Lauren Wendt 33:03
Probably the easiest thing is just my website, which is momentumk9training.com and that’s the letter K, number nine. And from there you can get to all my different social medias. So yeah, obviously handling on conservation projects, training, training dogs, getting dogs started for projects, and then just working with folks on on kind of a consulting project planning basis, yeah,
Kayla Fratt 33:30
yeah. And that’s awesome. And I know we’ll we’re planning on continuing to work with you and use you for whatever we can get out of you, because it’s been really nice to get to work with you. So yeah, definitely everyone needs to go ahead and check Lauren out. Thank you again for coming on this project. Thanks for recording this episode twice. We’ll probably have you back on to have more of like a normal episode just talking about, I don’t know, dog development or something so and for everyone at home, I hope that you enjoyed this episode and that you’re feeling inspired to get outside and be a canine conservationist in whatever way suits your passions and skill set, hopefully with fewer ticks and thorns than what Lauren had to deal with, and definitely fewer javelinas. And as always, you can find show notes, donate to K9Conservationists, buy a t shirt with Barley’s face on it, whatever you need to do. It’s all over at k9conservationists.org We’ll talk to you in two weeks. Bye!