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In this episode of K9 Conservationists, Kayla is back with Esther Matthews to talk about succulent anti-poaching detection dogs.
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Where to find Esther: Website | Instagram | Dog’s Instagram
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Transcript (AI-Generated)
Kayla Fratt 00:00
Hello, and welcome to the K9Conservationists podcast, where we’re positively obsessed with conservation detection dogs. Join us every other Tuesday to talk about detection training, canine welfare, conservation biology and everything in between. I’m Kayla Fratt, one of the three co founders of K9Conservationists, where we train dogs to detect data for researchers, NGOs and agencies.
Kayla Fratt 00:28
Today’s patron slash student shout out goes to our amazing student, Yana, alongside her dogs Kira and sarmi. Yana was one of our first core patrons in our student group, and her astute questions and attention to detail really pushed me as a mentor, and her dedication to wildlife has paid off as she moves forward in her conservation dog journey. It’s been such a privilege to watch her really spread her wings as both a trainer and handler and bringing together her rather illustrious career as an ecologist, along with her background on search and rescue to make a lot of impacts in the conservation dog world.
Kayla Fratt 01:05
So today, we have Esther Matthews back on the podcast to talk about a really cool new project that she and the rest of the team have been working on. So Esther, why don’t you remind us what what your job is, what your dogs are, and introduce us to this project.
Esther Matthew (EM) 01:23
Thanks, Kayla, so I am the senior conservation specialist officer for the drylands conservation program at the Endangered Wildlife Trust. And as part of my job, I train dogs to find endangered and elusive species, and I mostly work with Border Collies, but the Endangered Wildlife Trust has a conservation canine unit as well, which shardy forms part of. She’s the coordinator of the unit, and we have 13 dogs. Some are placed at reserves for anti poaching, and others do vehicle and and parcel screening at courier companies and airports and so on so and and they typically are mostly German Shepherds and Belgian Malinois. So we have quite a variety of breeds that we’re working with. And for this particular project, we decided to which is a project focusing on combating the illegal trade of settlement plants. And so we decided, as part of our journey to to take a sample of dogs. So so we used my brown Border Collie we also trained a Belgian Malinois and a German Shepherd at the same time. And then we deployed all three of them and, and we looked at also, you know, where each of them kind of would shine and, and, and perform better, and, and so. So what was interesting to see is that each of them brought a specific component where they were really useful and and the combination of the three actually was ideal for what we wanted to do.
Kayla Fratt 03:07
Oh, that’s so neat. I didn’t realize that, yeah, you had multiple dogs, and you were looking at how to fit them together through this mosaic. So why don’t we start out with I don’t think like I was just talking to my roommate and my field tech about this podcast recording before hopping on, both of them were like, Oh, I didn’t realize that succulents were a poaching risk. You know, is that for the house plant trade. Can you tell us a little bit about what’s going on with succulents, and you know why we need detection dogs to be involved in the anti poaching like fight for succulents?
Esther Matthew (EM) 03:42
We it’s quite an interesting topic. And even myself, I wasn’t aware of the extent of the problem and until we started with this project, but it’s really becoming a serious problem. And there’s specific species that are targeted in South Africa, but I know the US also has problems with some succulent plant poaching as well, and it is mostly for collectors, mostly for household use, but it is that the collectors want specific plants that are only found in certain areas, and that they also they want the, I kind of want to say, the wild growing plants. They don’t want the cultivated growth forms. So the growth forms are quite different when they naturally grown in the felt, where they occur, versus when they cultivated. And I think that is one of the bigger things. And also, some of these plants take really long to be cultivated, where it’s much easier to just grab them out of the felt. And so what we’ve been seeing, and with working with nature conservation authorities and the police and so on, is that that some of these species are actually going extinct, so they are being poached to some extent that, like even the known sites, the species aren’t present anymore, and the researchers are struggling to find some of these species. And, and there’s been cases where even syndicates have been found with, like, over 40,000 plants in their position. So it is really, wow. It’s a huge scale. And like, like I said, I wasn’t even aware of the extent of it. And it’s becoming like, you know, really, like any kind of other poaching, where it switches hands, it switches vehicles, it’s which, you know, there’s places where things drop off. Courier companies are being used to move the plant, trucks and so on, are being used to disguise and move some of the plants. So it’s, really, it’s a big issue. And the problem is that, you know, I think it’s a low risk for the poachers, because it’s not a live animal, although you still have to keep it live. But the succulent plants have are quite robust, and they don’t need a lot of water, so they easily, successfully transported. So so it’s easy, and a lot of people, you know, look for for rhino horn and things like that. And there’s no one really looking for these plants, right? So, so there’s a series of factors that make it an easy target. And what has caused the problem now is that, you know, no one’s noticed until it’s it’s actually become a really big problem, right? Yeah? So, yeah,
Kayla Fratt 06:27
yeah, well, I guess Yeah, like a succulents not going to run away from you. Yeah? It does seem it’s a, yeah, it’s a much easier target. I guess I just over the cash. I don’t even remember now, I don’t know. A couple months ago, I read this book called The Falcon thief, which followed the story of this guy who was just a notorious international poacher, particularly focusing on eggs of wild Falcons. Yeah, and they ran into kind of similar things, obviously, that can be very, very very dangerous, because you’re having to, like, repel or climb onto cliffs. But, yeah, eggs don’t run away. They don’t bite. But then, I mean, gosh, the challenge of keeping an egg alive and viable so that you can sell it. But it was the same thing in the falconry community, there’s quite a bit of belief of, like, wild caught wild birds being superior to domestic birds for like Falcon racing or other I don’t know Falcon competitions. I don’t I read the book and I really enjoyed it, but I guess I don’t remember all the details. So okay, so yeah, that, and it’s always mind blowing to me. I think it’s really easy to forget just how large these syndicates are, and the amount of logistics and some of the banality of poaching, I guess, as like, yeah, once you’ve got the succulent out of the ground, then you’ve got to figure out how to get it to these collectors. And there’s a lot of really boring steps in there. So what is the stage at which the dogs come into that, like, are you screening vehicles that are coming out of particular areas? Are you out ports? Like, where are the dogs? Yes. So
Esther Matthew (EM) 08:08
basically, at the moment, we started end of last year, and it was, it was a pilot study, but it was so successful that that we, we’ve increased our efforts. We just looking for more funding to continue the work. But at the moment, we are using the dogs at roadblocks, at, like you said, vehicles moving out of particular areas. Set up roadblocks with the police and the traffic departments, and then screen vehicles coming in and out of areas, and then also courier companies. So we do visit the courier companies and screen parcels as well, looking for for potential plants being transported in that way. Gotcha.
Kayla Fratt 08:52
And Is that dangerous for y’all or are these pretty routine traffic stops that generally go smoothly. Yes,
Esther Matthew (EM) 09:01
I think, you know, it has the potential to become dangerous. Usually, the police and traffic department and conservation authorities and us are this, you know. So there is quite, it’s quite a big intervention. But you know, when it comes to poaching, there’s always, always a risk that things will escalate, and we do plan and and work according to those things, also like risk of sharing names and too much detail where we are and where the dogs are and things like that. So it’s a difficult scenario, because, you know, we kind of need to somehow publicize the fact that they are dogs out there looking for the succulents and and you know that that poachers are way that the interest in the trade is is picking up from the law enforcement side, but then in such a way that we don’t risk. Or our own, you know, even our own lives like that. So,
Kayla Fratt 10:07
yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I know I’ve heard yeah stories of anti poaching dogs being targeted, and that’s terrifying. And I The other thing I was thinking about with these like, I guess Yeah, checkpoints would be the word is, like, when I was living in El Salvador, the police would set up these that are tenes, which I think is basically a translation of checkpoint to check. Like, a lot of times it was just pulling people over because they didn’t have motorcycle helmets on. And it was amazing how fast news of those traveled, and how quickly just up and down the highway, everyone would know that, like, okay, there’s a 10 up ahead and like, so take this other route, or, you know, get your helmet on, or don’t travel today, or whatever it is, because also, a lot of people in El Salvador just don’t have driving, driver’s licenses. So you’re, you’re running around without a motorcycle, without a helmet, without your insurance and without a license, as just kind of standard practice, and then the police try to crack down on it. But like the cheese man network, the gossip network, like gets ahead of the police a lot. Is that something that is a problem as well here?
Esther Matthew (EM) 11:16
Yeah, so definitely, you know, we’ve seen cases where a suspicious vehicle would come in, and they’re already contacting people as as they the police are looking through the vehicle and so on. So I’m sure they’re notifying the others to not come through that area. It does spread and and what’s nice is we do a variety, so we do pop up roadblocks, and then we also do where there’s a permanent roadblock. We then come in with the dogs, so people know there’s a road block for for traffic fines and so on, but they don’t expect the dogs to be there. Nice, yeah. And then also, you know, night kind of almost, I want to say ambush type of roadblocks where we we hidden until the vehicle comes close, and then, then they get pulled off so they can’t see the roadblock from from afar, from a distance. Yeah. And
Kayla Fratt 12:12
I’d imagine some of your protected areas, there’s only so many roads in and out, so it would be easier to they are
Esther Matthew (EM) 12:19
two, two main roads that are used at the moment from two different areas, but they, unfortunately, there’s a lot of gravel road alternatives, yeah, so you can’t just really want to bypass. They are ways and means, and if they know we’re there, but obviously, in terms of the economical viability. If they can take the shortest, easiest route, they’ll do that if there’s no chance of getting caught. So I guess our presence also, you know, helps just make it a bit more difficult.
Kayla Fratt 12:55
Totally, a lot of times they’re just trying to, like, throw sand in the gears of stuff. And like the dogs are part of, as you mentioned, like a huge effort. So they’re, they’re an important part. But you know, we’re not expecting the dogs to do 100% of the work here.
Esther Matthew (EM) 13:16
It’s like a multi organizational initiative to to increase the law enforcement around the trade. So I think, I think that’s important to note is that it’s, it’s not just us, but we, we just, we just a tool to to aid law enforcement. So
Kayla Fratt 13:34
yeah, so tell us a little bit about the dogs that have been selected for this. You mentioned your brown Border Collie and then two others. So why were those three dogs selected? And then again, you talked about, like, the differentiation that’s ended up happening with that. So tell us about that. That’s fascinating.
Esther Matthew (EM) 13:49
Yes, so, so what was interesting is we basically had my border collie that was two years old at the time when we started, and then the other two dogs were four years old. So, you know, they had a little bit more experience. Like I said, they were already Endangered Wildlife Trust dogs. So they were trained on things like firearms, rhino horn, pangolin scale, line bone, you know, the obvious, traded wildlife sense. And the reason why we selected them is, firstly, we wanted a bit of variety to see, you know, which one would perform better. We also looked at selecting dogs that, within, you know, our selection that we had that weren’t trained on too many other things, because, you know, we had some other dogs that were already trained on 10 or 15 other scents. So you don’t want to now add a bunch of plants onto that as well. So we looked at fairly dogs with, I don’t want to say limited training, but some experience, but not too many odors in the. Library already and, and yes. And then we ended up with with Ike the German Shepherd and Reaper, the Malinois and Delta, the Border Collie. And what was interesting for me is to see how each of them had a a kind of a place where they were the best choice. So for example, Ike was the German Shepherd. He He’s has obviously a really big nose, and so he’s really good at scenting and things that are deep in like deeply hidden, and he’s quite meticulous with his searches. So in that case, you know, when there’s big pack trailers and stuff, we would, we would likely use him, where the Belgian Malinois, she’s basically a cat. So she’s on top of everything, and so on top of trailers, and in busses, on the chairs, on, you know, she would go in or on anything. So in terms of that, she was useful for that, very agile, very keen to go on top of things. And then with the Border Collie, what was interesting in the courier company, she was probably the most she had the softest approach. So in terms of stepping on parcels and and working in lines and things like that, she was slow and steady. But then also, like in a very controlled in a in a tight space, if I can say it like that, yeah, yeah. We, we the others tend to come in all guns blazing. But, you know, took a little bit more restraint to get them to move at a slower pace and things like that, which he was, you know, tippy, toeing around, around the parcels and still making, making the fines. So, yeah, each of them brought, brought a component to to the work that made it great. And then what we also found useful is, just like these extended road blocks, the dogs can’t work for such long periods. So we would rotate them, you know, almost every 45 minutes, and change the dogs to give the others a break and then and use a different dog. And in some occasions, like with big busses, we would send one dog inside and one outside. Oh, cool, yeah, on some vehicles, but yeah, it was just a whole interesting experience, also quite new for me, compared to what what I’ve been doing. Yeah, because
Kayla Fratt 17:39
you’ve never done like big vehicle searches like this before. Yeah, no vehicle
Esther Matthew (EM) 17:43
searches before. So, so it was a big learning curve for me, and that’s why it was so nice working with shoddy because she had the law enforcement side of it, where I had the more conservation side, if I can say it like that, and we brought the two two cultures together and the two training methods together to to start this project.
Kayla Fratt 18:07
Yeah, yeah, that’s such a cool, such a cool combination. And so Shadi did was one of these dogs, her dog, or
Esther Matthew (EM) 18:15
Shadi, is the handler for the other two dogs. Okay, so, so she she came down to so we were quite far spaced from each other in our general operation. So she drove down about 1400 kilometers with the two to come to our area. And then we drove another 1000 kilometers to operationalize the dogs. So, like, we wouldn’t go, obviously, to the areas where the poaching is happening and things like that. So we moved around a lot. We did lot of night roadblocks and ja and so she typically handles them for the other operations, like airport searches, cargo searches with them. So she, she was still the handler and and then she, she came down with the two of them. And we, we first, when they came down, it’s kind of a new environment and so on. We, we did some in in area of operation training as well. Yeah. And then, and then, shortly after, started working with the police and the other authorities to implement the project. And what was great is it was intended as a pilot project, firstly, to see if the dogs would be able to pick up on a quite a like a whole genus of of plants, not just one species. And then also, we had so much success in this pilot period that, you know, the potential is still there to continue with a lot of work in this area.
Kayla Fratt 19:49
Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing. So tell us a little bit about the training for these dogs, like getting training samples, actually getting them trained up. I know the one plant project I work. Done. I was surprised how much work it was to get the dog to go from cuttings of the plant to live plants, and getting him to to make that jump. So yeah, tell us about the training side of things.
Esther Matthew (EM) 20:13
Yeah. So that was also interesting, because obviously it’s illegal to have these plants. So we, we worked with the Botanical Gardens and the organization called Sandby, that’s the South African national Biodiversity Institute. So they, they host, they host the plants that are are seized by law enforcement for the cases. So they have the poached plants, yeah, that are coming in, which is also great, because the trends change in the target species that the poachers are going for. It’s not the same species all the time. Oh, yeah.
Kayla Fratt 20:53
And when
Esther Matthew (EM) 20:58
they run out of one, they move to the next one, you know. So what’s nice is we constantly get samples from them, from from what’s actually coming out of the poachers hands. And I think that made a huge difference, because we were training with actual poached plants. And every few months, we get with new samples and and what’s fresh and what’s new. And so we started training with that. And we started with a specific genus of plants that are mostly poached. And we we started with four different plants as different species of that genus. And we wanted to see if the dogs would, you know, genuses and species for plants are based on, you know, scientific research, not on odor. So we weren’t sure if there would be a similarity between these plants, because they look different, right? Yeah. So, so what we tried is we started imprinting on on the first two samples, and the dogs immediately started indicating on three and four and five and six and seven, so that there was a component that obviously was was present in all of those and and, funny enough, not in all plants. So we did have decoy plants in between that are non and they weren’t going for those. So, so obviously, we’re not sure what they are going for, but it worked. Well,
Kayla Fratt 22:25
yeah. Oh, cool, yeah. And that’s such a nice connection. I mean, this is the nice thing about getting to work with law enforcement, and the fact that, yeah, you are, they are able to capture these poachers and get these plants so you know exactly what they’re what they’re working on. And I’m sure, you know, part of that odor picture is probably how those plants are being stored. And, you know, I don’t know if they’re putting them in plastic bags or bins or, you know, whatever it is, but there’s, there’s other contaminants that you need to turn the dogs off of as well. But also, you know, you’ve got, like, that whole scent picture. And are they doing anything? Have you seen these poachers like trying to disguise the odor of the plants in any way.
Esther Matthew (EM) 23:04
There’s been some that have been concealed in packaging and hidden in some of some other articles and so on. Typically they taped clothes into like shoe boxes and then selecting backpacks and things like that. Often kept in in paper bags for the plants purposes, breathability and things like that. So, yeah, they usually sorted by species and then packed in that way, I think because, you know, the search for them and the fact that the dogs are brand new. From from what we know, no one’s else been using dogs for anti poaching of plants. You know, no one expected dogs to come and look for them and and I think in that way, the concealment has been limited. But I think as as the news spread that they are succulent detection dogs, they might start to try to conceal it more, yes, at this stage, then they typically not consumed very well, usually in a box. And so, yeah,
Kayla Fratt 24:09
yeah, that makes sense, well, and I can imagine, I mean, as opposed to something like ivory or pangolin scales like these are delegate. You have to keep them alive as you’re moving them. So your option, I would imagine that your options for concealing them like you can’t saran wrap them and dip them in oil, cover them in gasoline, the way that we think of with like, you know, in the in, you know, here in the US, most of what we’re thinking about is like, drugs, um, being trafficked around. You know, it’s probably not great to have heroin that’s been wrapped in surround wrap and then dipped in oil. That’s probably not the my preferred way to receive it, but still, you know, like you can, it’s my understanding.
Esther Matthew (EM) 24:55
Yeah, well, you’re true. What you’re saying is true because, um. The plants obviously have to breathe in some way or form. So you can’t really a type package them even, because, yeah,
Kayla Fratt 25:06
yeah, exactly like and a lot of the really, really stinky stuff that might be used to try to disguise their odor. You also can’t cover a live plant in something like that. So I guess that’s, that’s a good that’s a huge win for the dogs. Yeah. And I would imagine, generally, like a live plant has a bit more like olfactory volatility than some of these, yeah, yeah. Like barley. Right before we left working dogs for conservation, we were just starting to get him trained on ivory for a different study that they were doing there. And, yeah, like, the detection distance for ivory is not much. It’s not very stinky,
Esther Matthew (EM) 25:49
yes, because it’s a dry, hard material. So yeah, yeah. And
Kayla Fratt 25:53
we also, like our training samples that we were working with there were like, ivory jewelry. So it was, like pretty, not fresh, and it was, you know, a lot of it was like family heirlooms that people in the US had, like, donated back for these purposes. And, you know, they had all the permits and whatever. But still, it was just they were not. It wasn’t like a fresh Tusk right off an elephant that might still have some odor to it. I’m not imagining. Anyway, before we go too far down that rabbit hole, yeah, was there anything else interesting that came up through training the dogs? Or was anything surprising to you as a handler? Yeah, so,
Esther Matthew (EM) 26:28
so one of the interesting things was one of our busts. So, like you typically would now, imagine, you know, training the dogs on big quantities of the plants, because the poacher won’t have, you know, one or two, they’ll have, like, a box full or bags full of of these plants. So we did train with a variety. We obviously couldn’t keep large quantities with us, but we would go to locations where they keep them and train there, put big bags in cars, and then, you know, do vehicle searches and things like that. But mostly we would have two or three or four plants with us from each species that we would train on. So what was interesting in in one of our our best busts with the dogs, was that we were at a roadblock at night, and a vehicle came in and and as the vehicle saw the roadblock, it slowed down and and shortly after, it came into the into the roadblock. And so we screened the vehicle, and the doors were open, and as a dog walked around the vehicle, the dog indicated at the back door, back passenger door, and in the door frame was a single plant, a blueberry sized succulent plant. Oh my gosh, which then alerted the police, and they confronted the driver and so on. And as this all was happening, one of the police officers walked up the road, and he found, actually the plants they threw out of the window before entering the road block, which was around 2000 plants that they got rid of. Oh, my God, because they saw the road block. And if it wasn’t for the dogs, we wouldn’t have found that single plant that somehow must have fallen back into the vehicle or dropped out of the box in some way, and without that plant, they couldn’t link the poachers to
Kayla Fratt 28:33
blueberries like the whole plant was. So these are like tiny plants. I was definitely imagining, like, at least, I don’t know, like golf ball size,
Esther Matthew (EM) 28:50
but particularly one has, like, a blueberry size plant and and, like I said, we, you know, you could see there’s nothing in the vehicle, and the dog went underneath the door and just indicated and we spotted that one blueberry
Kayla Fratt 29:08
that’s so cool that must have felt amazing. It
Esther Matthew (EM) 29:11
was really cool. We were very tired by that point, but we were very excited.
Kayla Fratt 29:15
Yeah. Can you share like, about how many finds the dogs have had so far or like, I don’t know what is confidential at this point,
Esther Matthew (EM) 29:25
so some of the cases are still in progress. But basically, to summarize is that we were kind of instrumental, not always, you know, doing the bus ourselves, but where we were called in by the police afterwards to screen vehicles and boxes and things like that for four cases with a total of nine poachers, and that was in a two month period. So so the dogs assisted with with the rest of nine poachers in total. All. So they were basically four events where either the dogs were used for vehicles and or parcels or so, for example, the courier company phoned us the one day and said, a suspicious parcel came in, and we brought the dogs there, and they indicated and the police opened up, and it was full of plants. So you know that that kind of thing. So it wasn’t always a clean bus for the dogs, if I can say, but the dogs aided in many but, but that particular one, I think, would have, you know, the poachers would have left, and it was two poachers in the vehicle and and, you know, they would have, would have gotten away with it if because of discarding the plants before the roadblock. So in that case, we were really proud that it was a clean, clean bus ride the dogs. But in most cases, it’s a collaboration with them, part of the team and traffic, even the traffic department has been, you know, because they’ve been exposed to the dogs and the police and the whole scenario, they’ve been keeping an eye out. So if they’re checking for licenses, they checking for suspicious boxes now as well, and then in the rest of us. So that’s that also helped a lot. Yeah, but yeah, it was, it was basically a two month trial period that we full on, did that and and like this week, we, for example, also did a few few screening events and so on. But it it’s at a point where we just, we’re just looking for more funding. The the interest is there, the successes are there, and it’s just like getting the right funder to continue to fund the work. Yeah,
Kayla Fratt 31:40
that was kind of my last question that I at least have written down, was, yeah, what some of the challenges have been so far in this process? And it sounds like, like it almost always, is in conservation. Part of it is money,
Esther Matthew (EM) 31:52
yeah, so I think obviously, like funding going forward, I think we all were surprised about how many successes we had in like a first run, if I can say it like that. But the other challenges are that you know, as much as it’s great that we collaborate this also, the more you know companies, organizations, authorities, you have involved, the less easy it is to arrange a roadblock without the information leaking and and things like that. Yeah. And, like you said, and people notifying other people, the more people involved, the more the less secretive these interventions can be. And so that is one of the challenges, I would say as well, is how, how one can work around just, you know, working together, but then also keeping it unpredictable for from the poachers side, yeah,
Kayla Fratt 32:55
yeah. But again, I mean, just disrupting it and making them work harder is helpful, too.
Esther Matthew (EM) 33:02
At least it’s something, at least it should contribute to some kind of benefit for the plants and so on as well.
Kayla Fratt 33:09
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or share about this project?
Esther Matthew (EM) 33:18
No, I think we’ve got
Kayla Fratt 33:21
advice. Yeah. I mean, I’m just still, like, grinning ear to ear from the story of the dogs finding that little play. I mean, I just, I What a Yeah, what a cool example. And yeah, that must have felt so good. Um,
Esther Matthew (EM) 33:34
yeah, to send you that photo, because it’s please, do you see it? It’s even, like, more shopping,
Kayla Fratt 33:43
yeah, and it actually, it’s again. Now we’re just, we’re just going off the rails. I once was crossing the border from the US or from Canada into the US, and we had a bunch of takeout in in, like, a seat in between my my boyfriend at the time, and myself, and we’re came up to the border, and there was a, there was a big dumpster next to the border, so we, like, pulled over and threw the the leftover takeout out before we went across the border. So and we got, we got grilled from them.
Kayla Fratt 34:22
Like, it was, like leftover greasy fries that were really cold.
34:30
Sorry, yeah, no. I
Kayla Fratt 34:34
mean, yeah, I had, I’ve had drugged or, I guess, I’m not sure that they were drug dogs, but I’ve had dogs go through my vehicle crossing borders in Latin America, I think the Nicaragua border is where I’ve gotten sniffed the most times. And then when I flew into El Salvador last they have agriculture detection dogs in their part in El Salvador. That’s awesome. Yeah, I’m not sure specifically what they’re working for. And honestly, the dog that I saw when I was flying in last time looked. Terrified of the conveyor belts and the handler and everything. I don’t I’m not sure he was being effective at that particular moment, but maybe it’s for
Esther Matthew (EM) 35:10
pest control. You know, that would
Kayla Fratt 35:13
be my guess. Yeah, I know. You know, there’s such an agricultural economy bringing something, some pests, and for anything that hit sugar cane or coffee would be a really big problem nationally, very, very quickly. But yeah, and I know they there’s a lot of signs in Central America about some swine flus as well. So like all the border crossings, at the agricultural checkpoints and the border crossings will have these big posters about various swine flus that they’re really worried about. Yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah. Then yeah. I never, never quite got the answers there that usually when you’re crossing the border, you’re just trying to keep your head down, yeah, and then you think about it later. Anyway, I wonder what that dog was sniffing for. You don’t want to ask, because then you’re suspicious. This. This manual once lifted up into the rock. This was like the first time I drove into Nicaragua back in 2017 it was in a rock. We had a car with a rocket box on top, and the spaniel got lifted up into the rocket box and got muddy pockets all over everything we owned. I don’t know what it was looking for, but, yeah, it’s fun. Yeah. So are you? Are you gearing up for any projects now, before we head out of here? Yes,
Esther Matthew (EM) 36:28
we are. We’re gearing up for a specific endangered tortoise species that we’re looking for. So yeah, well, that’s what we’re prepping for the next two weeks, and then probably deploying for the next three weeks, looking for hatchlings, which are, you know, about five centimeters in size, tiny little tortoises. And the problem is the there was a big fire in the habitat, and so sorry, the dogs barking now, there was a big fire over the habitat, and the hatchlings are coming out now for these tortoises, and there’s a lot of aerial predation by crows and ravens. So so the survival rate is really low, predicted to be low because these tiny tortoises can’t get away from there’s no cover, you know, yeah, so we’re going into to screen the area in consecutive weeks after they hatch, to see how many we can relocate. And then once the habitats restored, then they can return. Yeah,
Kayla Fratt 37:41
yeah. Oh, that’s so neat. Yeah, you get, you just get to work on the coolest project. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We all get to work on cool stuff. Yeah, I was, when I was walking, walking barley this morning with my field tech, Tony. She’s been on the podcast before, so I could just use her real name, but she she and I were talking about your work, and I was just like, I think, I think Esther has got it figured out, like she’s got a career, like a job within an organization where you get to be the dog person to work on all of these amazing projects. And like, I hope that means that you have, like, support and security that a lot of us like freelance detention on people don’t have as much
Esther Matthew (EM) 38:29
it is. It does, you know? I mean, like, originally, the dog stuff was quite a small component of, you know, when I applied for for the job eight years ago, when I started with the organization, you know, the dog was, was not on the table, and then when they they, they figured out that I had Jesse, and she was a train sex protection dog, and that I was able to train her on youth stuff, then that kind of escalated. And, I mean, we are NGO in a non profit organization, so the risks are always there, but I think it’s more secure than then most other conservation detection dog Yeah, handlers, because you don’t have that organizational security and support,
Kayla Fratt 39:13
yeah? Yeah. I know my my advisor, my patient adviser, has been really trying to push me into considering being a research scientist at a university who happens or a professor who happens to work with the dogs. And you know, we’ll see those Professor jobs are hard to get, but yeah, it does sound nice. It sounds nice salary and not have to, like, do my own insurance. And, you know, I guess I’d still be doing just as much grant writing, but, you know, we’ll see. I’ve still got at least four years left in the PhD, so I’ve got a long time to think about what the next
Esther Matthew (EM) 39:50
step is, time now the first time you have time to think about what you want to do.
Kayla Fratt 39:55
It is very weird to this is the first time since. 2012 when I started undergrad, that I am like, in a town that I expect to be in for years and years and years. And it’s such a weird feeling to like, need like, I know I’m actually going to be here and actually trying to grow roots. And it’s been cool in a lot of ways. And then also a little like, I don’t think Corvallis, Oregon, is where I would have picked for myself just out of a list I get bummed about, like, the weather, the winters here are tough. It’s just it’s so cold and rainy, and I’m a big snow person, and there’s just no snow here.
Esther Matthew (EM) 40:38
Yeah, I can handle the cold of the snow at least, yeah,
Kayla Fratt 40:40
yeah. Because then I get to ski, and then it’s fine, and it’s the wet and the mud kind of got to me more than I expected. And yeah, I kept talking to friends and being like, oh my god, I have to do at least four more of these winters, which is just not a thought I’m used to having, because usually, you know, the last couple years, I lived in a van. If I didn’t like the weather, I could just drive my house away. That’s
Esther Matthew (EM) 41:06
interesting. I guess there’s pros and cons to
41:09
totally Yeah, at
Kayla Fratt 41:10
least now my house can’t have mechanical issues, so that’s nice. Yeah, having a house that can get a flat tire gets old fast. Can lost. Okay, well, I’ve got to go deal with about 500 pounds of field gear.
Kayla Fratt 41:35
Yeah, well, we’re, yeah, today we’re actually gonna like sort it. So it’s nice out today. So tomorrow it’s supposed to start raining again, so we’ve got to, got to get it taken care of today. So I’m going to let you go remind us where people can find you on the internet. And again, thank you so much for coming on. It’s so it’s always so fun to talk to you and get to hear about your
Esther Matthew (EM) 41:55
projects. Yes, same. Thanks for having me. And so yeah, people can follow www EWT org, dot z day for Endangered Wildlife Trust, as well as on Facebook and at EWT on Instagram. And then my personal profile, the most active one is at Esther Explorer on Instagram as well. And then also the dogs that will feature there are at Delta detection for for my two Border Collies that I work with, yeah,
Kayla Fratt 42:28
And you know, everyone needs more Border Collies in their Instagram feed. And you so much for coming on and for everyone at home, thank you so much for listening. I hope you learned a lot and you’re feeling inspired to get outside and be a canine conservationist in whatever way suits your passions and skill set, and that does not involve digging up endangered plants. Do not do that. And as always, you can find show notes, donate to K9Conservationists. Join our Patreon or join our online course all over at k9conservationists.org. Until next time!