Using Dogs to Survey for Baw Baw Frogs with Chris Hartnett

In this episode of K9 Conservationists, Kayla speaks with Chris Hartnett to talk about Baw Baw frogs.

Science Highlight: Obedience training effects on search dog performance

Links Mentioned in the Episode:

Where to find Chris: Website

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Science Highlight Summary: “Obedience Training Effects on Search Dog Performance”

• Objective:
  • Investigate the influence of obedience and agility training methods on Search Dog performance.
• Key Findings:
  • Positive training methods were more common among women handlers.
  • Dogs aged 12 weeks or less were introduced to obedience, while agility training often began between three months and two years.
  • Handlers spending over four hours per week training were more likely to achieve national certification, with 72% preferring positive training methods.
• Limitations and Further Research:
  • Reliance on self-reported data may introduce bias.
  • Variability in certified dogs’ disabilities and certifying standards.
  • Ambiguity in defining agility, potential cognitive changes in mature dogs overlooked.
  • Suggested future research on handler experience, reasons for search dog failures, and early puppy training for increased reliability.

Introduction to the Project:

• Zoos Victoria’s Threatened Species Program Coordinator, Chris Hartnett, leads the detection dog program since 2016.
• Focus on conserving the critically endangered Baw Baw frog, endemic to Mount Baw Baw in Victoria, Australia, with a population of less than 250 facing threats.

Survey Techniques and Challenges:

• Traditional surveys limited by male frog calls during breeding season and challenges in detecting cryptic species.
• Introduction of detection dogs following global success stories, particularly Border Collies in a proof-of-concept phase.

Dog Training Considerations:

• Dogs trained using skin swabs and live frogs at Melbourne Zoo.
• Emphasis on safety around wildlife, adaptability in training methods, and minimizing distractions.

Integration into Conservation Efforts:

• Chris Hartnett expresses enthusiasm for the potential of detection dogs to revolutionize conservation efforts.

• Detection dogs seen as valuable tools to address gaps in survey methodologies.
• Collaboration with partners ensures alignment with conservation goals.

• Detection dogs offer a comprehensive approach to surveys, potentially detecting frogs of any gender and age.
• Aims to enhance accuracy and efficiency in Baw Baw frog conservation.

Rapid Progression in Dog Training:

• Dogs swiftly transitioned from swabs to live frogs in training, surprising with their rapid progression.

Challenges in Training with Plains-Wanderer Birds:

• Attempt to train dogs on critically endangered Plains-Wanderer bird faced challenges due to rarity and difficulty in obtaining individuals.

Positive Observations, Results, and Future Expectations:

• Dogs exposed to challenging Mount Baw Baw environment, sniffing frogs during controlled releases.

• Positive results in locating frogs post-release, especially with experienced dogs like Kip.
• Exciting prospects include tracking released individuals for species management.

Process of Field Confirmation:

• Dogs alert to an area, followed by scientists confirming Baw Baw frog presence, including health assessments and sampling.

Dogs’ Contribution to Conservation Goals:

• Expected roles include tracking released individuals, monitoring health, and assessing genetic diversity.
• Dogs crucial for obtaining information about species populations and gender balance.

Program Expansion and Dog Welfare:

• Flexible program model at Zoos Victoria accommodates dogs from various sources.
• Emphasis on ensuring comfort and well-being during their transition, especially for rescue dogs.
• Chris expresses dedication to training, nutrition, and overall happiness, highlighting the rewarding aspect of providing dogs with purpose.

Transcript (AI-Generated)

Kayla Fratt 

Hello and welcome to the K9Conservationists podcast, where we’re positively obsessed with conservation detection dogs. Join us every week to discuss detection training, cannot welfare, conservation, biology and everything in between. I’m Kayla Fratt, a co-founder of K9Conservationists, where we train dogs to detect data for land managers, researchers, agencies, NGOs, and just about anyone else who needs conservation detection dogs.

Kayla Fratt 

Today I have the pleasure of speaking to Chris Hartnett, the Zoos Victoria Threatened Species Program Coordinator about working with dogs to find Baw Baw frogs. Working closely with a range of conservation partners, Chris has led the strategic planning and implementation for Zoos Victoria’s detection dog program since 2016. I’m super excited to get to this interview, but as always, before we get into it, we’re going to dive into our science highlight.

Kayla Fratt 

This week our summary was provided by our lovely volunteer Heidi Benson, and we’re reading the article titled “Obedience Training Effects on Search Dog Performance,” which was published in Applied Animal Behavior Science in April 2011 by Michael Ben Alexander, Ted Friend and Lore Haug. And the question was, do obedience and agility training methods have an effect on Search Dog performance, the author’s start off by highlighting the importance of working dogs having a solid obedience foundation and note that previous studies regarding search dogs have been failed to investigate how obedience training methods impact Search Dog performance. In order to address this gap in knowledge the author’s solicited self reported surveys from 177 dog handlers via the National Search Dog alliances website in 2007, and 2008. The surveys included questions on handler demographics, credentials and experience. Most respondents were between 36 and 55 years old. Though there was no association between handler age and dog performance. 68% of respondents were women and gender was found to be significantly associated with obedience training methods, with positive methods being more commonly associated with women than men. 58% of handlers had achieved state or national level certifications with their dog and certification was not associated with previous training experience, search and rescue or otherwise. Overall, respondents had less experience with search and rescue than they did with dog training, leading the authors to conclude that star dog training may have a high dropout rate. The survey also included questionnaires on the age at which handlers started training obedience and agility with their dogs and the training tools utilized. training tools were classified as either passive which included no tools, buckled Conacyt buckle collars, harnesses and front pole harnesses, or active which included head holders, slip leads, pinch collars and electronic collars. Obedience was started by 72% of handlers but before the age of 12 weeks, whereas agility training tended to be started later, with 67% of handlers starting agility between three months and two years of age, there was a strong association with between increasing age of the dog and use of active equipment, which the authors attributed to the increasing size and strength of the dog as it ages. Finally, respondents were asked about training methods and time spent training. handlers who spent more than four hours training per week are more likely to achieve a national certification, and 72% of handlers with a national certification preferred positive training methods while 28% prefer to compulsive methods. In closing the author’s note that further research on the effect of handler experience. The reason for failure of search dogs and how early puppy enrichment and training might be utilized to decrease earlier and increase the reliability of search dogs would be useful. So the study did rely heavily on self reported data, which may introduce bias or lack validity. Not all dogs were certified and those that were had have been certified in varying disabilities. 18 separate credentialing agencies allowing for potential differences in certifying standards. Not all groups disciplines were represented equally. For example, women were represented at a higher rate than men. 34% of respondents train their dogs in wilderness surgery, while 0% Were training, avalanche, etc. And then Heidi noted that it’s not 100% clear to her why they were interested in agility training. And I’m also interested in how they define agility. I don’t know if they mean a formal agility like what they do in a competition, or more of kind of like Strength Fitness, rubble piles sorts of conditioning work. And then it is also interesting that the author’s attribute, the increased use of active tools, as dogs got older to the dogs being larger and physically stronger and ignored, ignored the possibility that this might be due, at least in part to changes in cognitive processes. As the dog matures, or kind of training practices. You know, even people who are more balanced don’t tend to put these tools on young puppies in general. It also could be due to, you know, as Heidi kind of hinted here, the dogs changing over time and the authors or the trainers feeling the need to use these tools. And finally, it could also be that maybe an E collar is only introduced at the point where the dog is doing larger wielding In a search area, so that just simply wouldn’t be necessary until the dog is up to the point of doing that sort of work, which may not happen until the dog is a year or two older, even longer, potentially. So, anyway, great article again, you can find that over in applied animal behavior science.

Kayla Fratt 

And without further ado, let’s get to the interview with Chris Hartnett. All right, so last thing before we get to the interview, I do want to let everyone at home know that I am recording from outdoors at a hostel in El Salvador, just like the episode you heard with Toni. So if you’re hearing any background noise, unfortunately, that or that could be some compression breaks, or there is a 13 year old child running around on an ATV. Hopefully, we’ll get more of the jungle and less of that, but I do apologize for the sound quality. Without further ado, what Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Welcome.

Chris Hartnett 

Hi, Kayla. Thank you for having me.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, we’re thrilled to have you here. So why don’t we start off with just tell us about these Baw Baw frogs and what risks they’re facing? Tell me a little bit more about them. Because I actually I don’t even know what they look like. Tell me about them.

Chris Hartnett 

Sure. So the baw baw frog is it’s not charismatic to look at, but we adore them. They’re quite a small frog, quite sort of muddy colored so that they blend in with their environment. They are endemic to a very small region here in Victoria, Australia. So they’re endemic, which means only found on the boardwalk plateau at Mount Baw Baw. So they are an Alpine species. And they do spend quite a bit of their time burrowing down in in mud and leaf litter. So really one of those species that’s very cryptic, and critically endangered, so we’ve been keeping an eye on them. They are one of our zoos, Victoria fighting extinction 27 species. So we pour a lot of effort resources to actually making sure that that species does not go over into the brink of extinction.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, definitely. Well, and we we talk a lot about charismatic megafauna on this lab, which is a term that I think Dr. Areum Gomez more or less coined, and we definitely put frogs in that category. Frogs and bats and all of our other little guys. Yeah, so they, if they’re spending a lot of time growing leaf litter around things, know exactly all the little brown things. So it does sound like they could potentially be quite challenging to find if they’re spending a lot of time buried under leaf litter. Can you give us a little bit of idea? So you said they’re in this Mount Baw Baw region about how big is that what was what is the population looking like or maybe what the population is like kind of last time you got a good count on them or a good estimate?

Chris Hartnett 

Sure. So, as I mentioned, they are quite difficult to survey they are very cryptic species, the estimate is that there are less than 250 individuals in the wild. They are subject to threats, which you know, particularly a threat, which is putting amphibian species at risk globally, which is amphibian chytrid fungus. So, we have seen a drastic reduction in the numbers of these frogs, particularly because they are only found in that small region, we don’t have, I guess, the luxury of additional populations. We are focusing very strongly on that, that soul existing population, as I said, really small numbers. And we are undertaking recovery actions such as captive breeding to build up the population size, and that involves breeding here at the Victoria. And then structured release programs where we’re reintroducing adult frogs, as well as tadpoles and eggs into the wild to try to build up that population.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. 250 isn’t not not the sort of number we’d like to see for populations, generally,

Chris Hartnett 

a population of only 250 individuals or so. But also with a downward trajectory. So, you know, year on year, our survey efforts are showing reductions in in that number.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, so tell us a little bit about prior to dogs because as our listeners probably have already figured out, we’re angling towards the fact that you are starting to use or have been using detection dogs to work with these Baobab frogs. What survey techniques were being used to try to try to find these findings, Baba frogs get a good head count on them? Or, you know, as good as one can do?

Chris Hartnett 

Yeah, sure. So because this species is not highly visible, researchers were relying on the calling of the male frogs to actually detect where they are. So essentially, during breeding season, it’s only a very limited window from October to November, the adult males will call and so during population monitoring, the researchers were literally keeping an ear out for that calling. And then they would sort of have to dig down in sort of Boulder stacks and leaf litter to see if they could actually find the individual that was calling. So a really laborious process. And so definitely one that was calling out for some improvement or another tool that could be used to detect these frogs. And that’s where the detection dogs were hoping are going to make a big difference. Because if you’re not just relying on the calling of adult males to find individuals, you know, the dogs, if the if they’re using sent, theoretically should be able to find full bore frogs of any gender and any age profile. So it’s sort of not that reliance on that small window of opportunity when the males are calling.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, well, and I, as I can imagine, doing these, these auditory surveys, you’re super limited on a bunch of different ways. But, you know, not all, not all species tend to have the same number of males and females in them at any given point in time. I don’t know whether or not that’s true for ball balls. But regardless, you’re you’re only, at best, you’re only going to be catching 50%. So tell us a little bit about what sparked the idea of trying out conservation dogs. And maybe tell us about the early days of starting to get the dog side of this project up and running.

Chris Hartnett 

Show us I guess it’s not an idea that’s original to us. Prior to us embarking on on having a detection dog program here at CES Victoria, we did a literature review, we looked at the Global literature around working with dogs on various taxa. And we saw that, you know, throughout the world, dogs have been using conservation really successfully, mostly with with mammals, but there were some instances of reptiles and frogs. And we were particularly interested in that because we do have quite a few reptiles and frogs on our fighting extinction list. So we initially had a proof of concept phase for this program. We worked with an independent contractor and his dogs, he had some Border Collies, and we chose a couple of species from our fighting extinction list, one of which was the bobble frog, to really test whether this could be done. And whilst we obviously did help have all of that supporting literature and global work, we wanted to make sure that it could be done within the parameters that we work within. So in the very particular and challenging environment of Mt. Boerboel, for example, with a highly cryptic species that does borrow up to 30 centimeters down under the under the ground. So we really set a challenge for this contractor and his dogs. And the results from that proof of concept phase were exciting. We’re positive, the dogs actually, after being trained using skin swabs, and some exposure to live frogs at Melbourne Zoo, the dogs were able to detect bobble frogs in the natural environment. And so we used the learnings from that and the sort of impetus that we gained from doing that proof of concept study, to to frame the program that we now have launched here at CC Victoria, which is based at Healesville Sanctuary. So yeah, it was it was a really important first step to before we kind of went headlong into having our own program, we had that that test phase, if you like to see if this could work using the methodology that we’re comfortable with, particularly around welfare, both of the dogs and and of the target species, the threatened wildlife that we’re working with. And those results were really promising and who we are now with our own in house program, our own team of trainers, handlers, and detection dogs. And, you know, going back to mount forbore, to further that training with this species.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, that’s really exciting. And I mean, that seems like a really, a really logical way to go about it, you know, starting with someone who is experienced, and can can do the experiment, do the pilot as a subcontractor before diving in headfirst with your own on staff team. So tell us a little bit, particularly about working with these dogs with a very small, live animal? What were some of the big considerations? Because I’m sure you you all, were very careful about ensuring that training and dog selection and protocols helped keep the dog that well, the frogs mostly safe, that is something that we haven’t spent a lot of time talking about on the show for live live find in particular.

Chris Hartnett 

Yeah, and it’s obviously something that we try to communicate as much as we can that these dogs are not your average dogs. You know, they’re they’re highly trained, they are specially selected. We need to make sure that they’re going to be safe around wildlife, and not just the wildlife that they’ve been trained to detect, but anything else that they may have come across, you know, we have kangaroos that regularly move through the environment, and they’re big and they’re immobile, and certainly distracting As just one example. So yeah, a lot of effort goes into making sure that the dogs actually don’t pay a lot of attention to to any wildlife that they may come across. They focus on the job of detecting their target odor. And you know, that just that comes with time and patience, and adapting your training methodology to the individual dog. And obviously, you have that that key focus of welfare and safety, but you have to adapt your methods for the challenges that each dog presents. So we work with a lot of partners in our recovery programs for threatened species. And, you know, some of these agencies, including ourselves have been working on their species for for several years, and they do have survey methodologies that have been successful. So we select our target species based on whether there were there may be gaps that the dogs can help us address. And we say the dogs as another conservation tool, so are they going to be appropriate for any given species? What are those gaps? Will the dogs help us address those gaps? And then we work with our partners to ensure that everyone’s comfortable with using detection dogs. And so when you’ve already done that groundwork, you’re really setting yourself up for for more success.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, absolutely. No, that makes perfect sense.

Kayla Fratt 

K9Conservationists offers several on demand webinars to help you and your dog go along in your journey as a conservation dog team. Our current on demand webinars are all roughly one hour long and priced at $25. They include a puppy network all about raising and training a conservation puppy found it alerts and changes in behavior and what you’re looking for teaching your dog a target voter, find these free webinars along with jackets, treat pouches, mugs, bento boxes, and more over at our website, k9conservationists.org/shop.

Kayla Fratt 

Tell us about the early days of working with dogs. Was there anything that surprised or challenge you and and the subcontractor just as a as a team? It sounds like the detectability went well. But was that a? Was that a smooth road? Or did you hit any any interesting hiccups along the way?

Chris Hartnett 

Show. So with Baw Baw frogs, what actually surprised me is how quick the progression was for the dogs. They started out with, you know, sort of cotton swabs that had been rubbed on the skin of Bobo frogs at Melbourne Zoo. And then the dogs were training on those for a while, and then we set up a protocol where the frogs could be safely contained. And this is all under ethics approval. And then the dogs could actually sniff the containers with the with the frogs in them. And I was just so surprised at how quickly the dogs were able to leap from you know, the skin swabs to the center of the life frogs, and then to success in the field for bobble frogs, I really thought that was going to be the more difficult species, we did actually, within that proof of concept, have the critically endangered plants wanderer, which is a mostly ground dwelling grassland, bird. And we thought at will out of out of frog that burrows and a grassland bird, obviously, the dogs would be able to locate the verge more easily. But that presented some really unique challenges, and particularly with a species that is very rare. It was the difficulty in providing enough individuals so that the dogs could really get a solid scent picture. And that’s always a challenge for us with with the target species we have, they are all threatened, they’re mostly critically endangered in terms of their their status. So finding samples is probably the most challenging aspects of what we do. So, you know, we got further with the Baw Baw frog work than we did with the plans wonderful work purely because of a lack of opportunity, not wanting to expose any individual bird to you know that that sniffing element of the training for too long or too frequently. So that’s that’s a work in progress and something that we will keep going with now that we have our in house program.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting. So do these, do these birds kind of co occur with a Baw Baw frog? So is this something that you were hoping you could have the dogs go out and work with both species at the same time and kind of get a two for one with the surveys or what was the thinking with cross training the dogs on on those birds as well.

Chris Hartnett 

So very different environments, and each with their own challenges. And we would have potentially two different dogs, you know, a couple of dogs that sort of specialist in that alpine environment, and then a different dog for the grassland environment. And we do work with a number of grassland species. So it may be that we sort of bunch those together based on on that similarity of habitat, but in terms of airplanes wander and wobble from very different, very different environments. And we selected those To species because there were those gaps in in the survey methodology that we thought dogs could help with.

Kayla Fratt 

You see, I see. Yeah. And I suppose if you say that the Baw Baw frogs are found on a mountain and the plains wander has a name of the plains wonder that makes sense. So they’re not in the same place. Just showing my lack of understanding of the Australian continent? It’s a

Chris Hartnett 

good question, though, around around the grouping of the species that we have as our target species and, and selecting dogs to work on those different species as well.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, I know, that’s something that he’d Smith robe detection is a big proponent of and it’s something we think about a lot, especially when you’re working with animals that are targets that might be extremely low find for the dogs, or hard to confirm is, you know, is there something else that could be of conservation or ecological interest to cross train the dogs on? So that was where my mind went before actually kicking into gear thinking about the names of the animals and whether or not they are likely to be in the same place?

Chris Hartnett 

Yeah, absolutely. It’s a big consideration, when you think that there’s, there’s potentially going to be a lot of survey effort for the dog without a lot of reward. And we really have to manage their motivation to keep working and make sure that they’re enjoying it. And you know, they want to have a little party and celebrate when they find their targets. So yeah, definitely something that we have in mind when we’re working with threatened species, and just really how to manage that.

Kayla Fratt 

So tell us a little bit how have the dogs impacted the project. So far, it sounds like it’s still in the early days, but what have if anything, have you seen so far, and if there’s there’s nothing so far, tell us a little bit about what your your hopes and dreams and expectations are with this project.

Chris Hartnett 

The recent trip to Mount bobble where the amphibian team were releasing individuals that had been bred in captivity at Melbourne Zoo, was a really great opportunity for the detection dog team to bring the dogs up further exposure to that really challenging environment. And also an opportunity when the researchers were releasing frogs. And under very controlled conditions, the dogs were able to have a sniff of each individual that was being released. So that’s a massive opportunity for them to help really put that puzzle together in their minds of what they’re looking for. Really getting enough exposure to that scent, so that they can get that profile really, really fixed in their mind, and then they will be able to find it again in future. So like I was saying before, it’s one of our challenges. Getting enough sample material for the dogs to train on. This was a perfect opportunity. We knew where the where the frogs were going to be released. And then it was just a matter of, you know, releasing, giving, giving the dogs an opportunity to smell the individual taking the dog away so that they can’t use its visual skills to see where the frogs are. And then they would release a frog. And then the dog would be brought in to see if it could locate where that frog was a really funny, I guess observation was that they were marking their release location with pink flagging tape, and one of our dogs Kip, he’s a very clever and experienced boy, he pretty much straightaway we you know, we realized he was actually using that pink flagging tape as a cue. So you know, that was that was an opportunity for us and something that you would think that that that straightaway, but it’s just a technique that’s often used in the field where we use flagging tape for, you know, for location all the time. So yes, it didn’t take us long to realize that that clip was using that as his cue because it’s just too easy. So yeah, to change that. That occurred Yeah. And yeah, we got very results. Keep particularly again, because he’s so experienced, the other dog that we’re training theme is a younger dog. But Kip came to the program with a lot of conservation detection work under his belt already. So yeah, he’s he’s progressing really, really well on this species and was able to locate individuals post release,

Kayla Fratt 

where if you have the opportunity to not just give the dogs a a quick reward while you’re about to release the frogs, but then also give them this micro search that’s much more realistic, but still should be a little bit easier than being in the field. I mean, what a what a beautiful opportunity and a great way to give the dogs that kind of next step up in training. I know that something as we’re we’re getting ready to head into the Guatemalan jungle jungle for our next project. Our dogs have been getting trained on pretty heavily dehydrated scouts for the last month or two. And I’m very excited to hopefully be able to get on the ground and get them out and find some known samples of fresh scat because in kind of the lowlands of the Guatemala rainforest. It’s this guy They’re going to be very far from dehydrated. And I’m I’m very excited to be able to get the dogs, some quick hits and rewards for for that. It’s just something that’s so important as you’re moving the dogs from those early stages of training into more field readiness. So what are some of the things that you’re excited to see next with the dogs and the bars or some of these other projects that you’re exploring? For, for the dog program?

Chris Hartnett 

With Baw Baw frogs, it’s so exciting that we will potentially have a method for tracking how well those individuals are doing once we’ve released them from their captive bred environment into the wild. You know, it’s a hugely important part of translocations, that we can then follow up, follow those individuals, are they surviving? Are they thriving? Are they breeding? So and also, how far are they moving from their release locations, all of these pieces of information that are going to help us plan the management of the species, track their progress, and you know, sort of make sure that the recovery actions that we’re undertaking are making a difference. And this is information that has been really hard to obtain, not just for Baw Baw frogs, but pretty much for any threatened species that we may be releasing from captivity into the wild. And that’s a big part of what we do. It’s one of our fields of specialization that says Victoria is conservation, captive breeding. And then obviously, a big part of that is to be able to follow up on the individuals that you released. So dogs could have a crucial role to play in there. We try all sorts of technology. And some of it’s really expensive, and it’s imperfect. It’s not small enough, how do we attach it that type of thing, and dogs just seem to be such a natural fit for this kind of work? You know, they do this naturally, with the right training, I think they could surpass a lot of the technology. And also, another role that I see as critically important is finding individuals that are suitable for bringing into our captive breeding programs, because we need to manage the genetics of these small captive populations and sort of be cycling, new genetics in the new founders. And so the dose could help us find individuals to do that. And that’s such an important contribution to the recovery of a lot of these species.

Kayla Fratt 

Absolutely. Okay, that makes that makes perfect sense. So and I don’t know whether or not you’re ready to share this sort of information, and it’s absolutely okay, if not, so would the idea be then to have the dogs going out into the field alerting to an area and then having trained scientists going out and actually taking the frogs and getting them in hand to be able to assess health and potentially take samples to decide whether or not they’ve got the right genetic diversity to bring into the program to double check if they’re an individual that you all had bred and released, kind of what what is the process on the non dog end of the of the, the equation for those sorts of questions and goals.

Chris Hartnett 

It’s a real team effort. So the dogs are working closely, obviously, with their trainer handlers, but also with the expert biologists that we have working with us. So it’s crucial that those people are on board with detection dogs as as a survey methodology. And in the case of Baw Baw frogs, we’ve had such a fantastic relationship with the amphibian experts that work here at Suez, Victoria, but also with other agencies that we work with. They’ve been really excited about the possibilities for working with dogs on this species. And, you know, coming up with a list of things that the dogs could help with, which really helps inform our work, you know, we always consult with the species biologist to find out what path to take. So yeah, definitely a close relationship there and a lot of support. The dogs ideally would be taken up for Baw Baw frogs to Mount Baw Baw to the plateau, they would be helping locate individuals and then the team of amphibian experts would be standing right there basically, to provide confirmation that the dogs have found a Baw Baw frog. You know, it’s interesting with a with a cryptic, cryptic species. To some extent, you have to trust the dog, when they’re telling you it’s there. You have to you know, if you’re, if you’re certain that you’ve gone through all the prior steps in the training, that they are actually telling you that there’s a Baw Baw frog there. But what we obviously do is we have the specialists there who know how to handle these frogs and know the environment because you don’t want to create a lot of disturbance when you’re, you’re digging to find the frogs. That is habitat that’s crucial. So you know, not turning over rocks or if you do need to move anything, you put it right back where it was. And we rely on that expertise to then confirm that a frog has been found. And then depending on on, you know, the application at the time, the I already at the time, they may collect individuals to bring into captive breeding, or it may just be about monitoring the health, for example of individuals, and therefore getting a better sense of the health of the population. As you mentioned earlier, a lot of species can, for whatever reason, ended up with a gender bias. So that’s really important information for us to have as well. Different conditions can can lead to a population being out of balance in that regard. So just all of these, these pieces of information are coming together. And we hope that dogs are going to be able to really contribute to that, in tandem with with the human specialists.

Kayla Fratt 

Yes, thank you so much for sharing that I love the intricacies of how the dogs are really just part of a team. And that’s something that we really try to emphasize on this show is it’s not just about the dogs and what they’re able to sniff out and being out in the field, but actually involving the dogs as part of these larger scientific questions, and really bringing in the why of what we’re doing this. I think a lot of times when people first hear about the field of conservation detection dogs, you know, their first thought is, oh, my gosh, how great would it be to get paid to hike with my dog. And a, of course, the job is so much more than that. And sometimes it’s nowhere near as fun as that sounds. And B, I think the people who I see tending to last in this field, and the people who are really successful and are able to deal with the handler, lifestyle, tend to be people who are really excited about the outcome of this methodology and what the dogs are actually contributing to. And often to me, what is the most inspiring or interesting part of this work is not at all the dogs, but actually what’s happening as soon as the dog has found something. So yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And there’s just so much that you all are doing in this project. So, so interesting. So do you have any favorite, interesting, funny, cool, or maybe frustrating stories that you would like to share from the training or the field, the early stages of implementation that you’d be willing to share with us all.

Chris Hartnett 

So the training side of things, I’m sure that our wildlife detection dog officers would have plenty of stories to tell you it’s not something that I’m as involved in, I’m sort of more involved in the the oversight and the management and the coordination of the program. But I was certainly very present in that proof of concept phase. And you know, heading out into the field with the wonderful contractor, Luke and his two beautiful dogs. I was just, you know, as you were saying, Before, I was so impressed with the way people in dogs can cooperate. And it’s a beautiful thing to see humans and dogs just being on the same page and getting each other. It’s just so exciting the possibilities of that. And I do remember going up to Mount Bob Ward, not particularly fit person being a bit City Bound and making our way up these very, very steep paths, climbing over logs that were chest high, these massive fallen trees and falling behind, you know, because the the amphibian team is so fit and used to that environment. And one of the dogs, maybe being a herding dog being a border collie. He was just staying behind and making sure that we kept as a group and making sure that he would wait for me while I was just looking up, looking up the hill and thinking Hang on, I can’t see anybody. And then beautiful Rubble, he would appear at the top of the hill years up, just you know, making sure checking in that I was that I was catching up.

Kayla Fratt 

Oh, oh, Rob. Oh, that’s so sweet. Yeah, that does that sounds like a very nice thing to do, too.

Chris Hartnett 

I just love that dogs are such great team players as well. It’s something that obviously we value in conservation when when people can work together. That’s when we make a difference. And then the fact that dogs just do that so naturally as well. Yeah, absolutely.

Kayla Fratt 

I think they do tend to make pretty pretty good coworkers. Yeah, so as we’re wrapping up here, is there anything that we didn’t talk about yet that you want to make sure gets across or anything you wanted to circle back to or expand on before we go.

Chris Hartnett 

We’re working on growing the program here it says Victoria, we have a facility with with some really lovely kennels and exercise yards here at Healesville Sanctuary and we do have space for up to five dogs. Currently we have six dogs in the program. And we’re quite flexible in our model of where the dogs come from. It’s more about whether they pass the assessment of having all the right qualities. So a couple of those dogs do go home with one of our wildlife detection dog officers they are her companion dogs, but also being trained for the program. And then there is another dog that is the companion dog of a second one of our staff members as well. So we do have three dogs currently living in the detection dog hub here at Healesville Sanctuary. And you know a lot of work goes into making sure those dogs are comfortable with that kenneled environment. They a couple of them have come from rescue shelters and foster homes. And so it’s just really about making sure that the dogs can transition really nicely into our program. And they do have a really great life, they have the company of other dogs, they get a lot of exercise, a lot of stimulation, lots of play really good food, I’m quite jealous of the the amount of effort that goes into their food preparation. I wish someone was doing that for me. So yeah, just working with each individual dog and the challenges that they they may present on their their sort of learning in their learning process. And particularly if they have come from a background that had a lot of instability, they may have been surrendered. We do have one dog that was was sourced from what we call a pound here where he was just the family that had him couldn’t deal with his energy levels. But he is just such a beautiful addition to our program. And he’s a very happy dog now that he’s got a job to do.

Kayla Fratt 

Oh, yeah, we love to hear that we’ve got several dogs on our team that actually three of our four conservation dogs here were were rescues that were all more or less the same story. They were a little bit too crazy for their people and, you know, ended up with a shelter here. And you know, now they’re all very happy with my older dog barley is currently lying on my foot. And oh my gosh, going back to the diet that they get, I completed a short internship at the Cheyenne Mountain zoo several years ago. And I just remember the first time I was learning to prepare the hippo diets that I just remember thinking, wow, I would really like someone to do this for me. And wow, these, these melons look really good. I would love to hire a zookeeper or a zoo nutritionist as my personal chef. This seems like the way to go. Yeah, definitely very well looked after.

Kayla Fratt 

Yeah, certainly. Yeah, it’s and honestly a lot of a lot of even just kind of Dog People, especially kind of the capital D capital P dog. People of the universe are also tend to be very highly dedicated to their dogs food and nutrition. And I love that for all of our working dogs. Thank you all so much for listening. And Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We learned a lot from you and I hope everyone at home is feeling inspired to get outside and be a canine conservationist in whatever way suits your passions and skill set. You can find show notes, transcripts, donate to K9Conservationists and join our Patreon over at K9Conservationists.org. Until next time!