In this episode of K9 Conservationists, Kayla is back with Katie Brennan for part two about sourcing shelter dogs for work.
Links Mentioned in the Episode:
Where to find Katie: Website | Instagram | Facebook | Recruitment
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Transcript (AI-Generated)
Kayla Fratt
Hello and welcome to the K9 Conservationists podcast, where we’re positively obsessed with conservation detection dogs join us every week to discuss detection, training, canine welfare, conservation, biology and everything in between. I’m Kayla Fratt, one of the cofounders of K9 Conservationists, where we trained dogs to detect data for land managers, researchers, agencies and NGOs. Today, I have the joy of doing part two with Katie Brennan from the Search Dog Foundation. We’re talking about sourcing shelter dogs, testing them. And then career changes, if potentially that don’t work out with Search Dog Foundation. If you haven’t already, go back and listen to part one, it was a fascinating conversation, we planned on just doing one part. And we talked for nearly two and a half hours. So we split it into two, you are in part to go back to part one if you haven’t listened to yet. And without further ado, let’s hop right into it. Because as I said, we’ve got a lot of material to cover.
Kayla Fratt
I do a lot of mentoring. I do a lot of outreach, I talk to novice people. And I talked to a lot of dog trainers who are like, what is what the obsession with toys, what is with the obsession with these obsessed dogs. And I think in some cases, they do have a point, I think in some cases, we do have this like cultural fog of like this very specific type of dog that we’re really looking for. And you are in a different position for me because you are selecting dogs that need to be put through a program and sent out to a variety of handlers, which is pretty different from like me where I’m handling and training my own dog or many of our listeners. But I think like It’s like both are true, where it’s like, for us in the conservation art world. There are some really successful dogs who work for food, who maybe don’t have that crazy over the top, hunt, drive who, you know, whatever it is like niffler. Actually, I was kind of thinking through this, and I actually I might have to go try this. I won’t be able to do it with a stranger, but I might have to go try it because I’m not entirely sure what he would do with the one minute wait. He’s also kind of a bozo. 21 month old right now. Right? Teenager brain? So a lot of feelings. Really curious. Yeah. Because to see, you know, if he would actually potentially not do well on this test.
Kayla Fratt
So, but okay, I keep saying this. I think both things are true, because I also have seen novice handlers who maybe are experienced dog trainers who say, Yes, I can do XYZ or, you know, you see these nosework people coaching and coaxing is amazing. Oh, yeah. Such as out of dogs that we would never consider for work. However, what I have seen in a lot of situations is when the rubber meets the road. Yeah, those gaps start to show up. Yeah. And I think that’s a you know, I think it’s, it’s important to discuss the why and the fact that yes, in these 10 minute searches, 15 minutes searches, even in competitive nosework we can get a lot of stuff out of some dogs that I’m not as convinced. We can do that in a working situation. And maybe you can if you’re an amazing trainer, but for a particularly again for your mission that doesn’t quite align and for us. Sure, I may, like niffler will pick on him again, like poor boy. He’s so it’s been it’s yeah, we’re doing a whole niffler episode coming up soon. I love it. Because I’m so proud of him. So happy with him. However, I actually don’t know if he would do that. Well, in these assessments. Yeah, but that’s, but it doesn’t matter. Because he doesn’t have to go through them. He’s with me. I’m working with him. We’re, you know, I’m loving what I’m seeing out of him anyway, and I now I’m making it sound like he’s not a good working dog. And he’s, he’s
Katie Brennan
got to I got so anyway,
Kayla Fratt
no worries. Um, is there any more of the why particularly kind of behind these hunt drive tests, or some of the subtle things that you’re looking for as an expert, where again, as a shelter worker, they might be like, Why does it matter? Why do we want my frustration? Why did we want to build this in, you know, that’s not generally aiming for? Yes, no,
Katie Brennan
I love it. So, so to kind of start with sort of one of the initial things that that you touched upon, which is this idea of, of food, right, like people can do amazing things a food drive, my dogs are foodies. Foodies, right like that. Like even the Border Collie. Let’s get real. She is a foodie as well. I’m lucky I have both best of both worlds with that tiny creature. However, her OneDrive is not all that good, shockingly, very exciting. But luckily, she’s not a search candidate. So we’re gonna know. Yeah, so it’s kind of again, it’s that well, they have a high Food Drive, they would work for food forever. Absolutely. There are some dogs, oh my gosh, they work for food forever. I own a few. They’re psychotic, like there is no full right? It is not happening. They can do food distractions in odor work, we’ve competed to nosework my guys do research detection. So like you we’ve done the things and they can bypass food, not an issue, right to get to target odor. So where the toy becomes important for us, and especially important for us is obviously we then have to proof against food pretty hardcore, like super hardcore. I mentioned trash, free, you know, like you, they might be searching a collapsed supermarket, I don’t know, you know, so they have to just not worry about it. First of all, and we have Labradors. We have Labradors love their food, right. So, so we have to prove against a hardcore for those reasons. But also, for us, it’s not just about the toy itself, it’s not just about the hunt itself, it’s also about building this into an engagement with the handler, and therefore with anybody that has the toy object, right. So when they are placed with their permanent forever handler, which happens after they, you know, complete our training program, they are they are, they get to be that one person, dog, however, like I’m kind of mentioned and alluded to, there might be cases where they have to work with somebody else, for whatever reason, obviously, you know, demos are a thing. You know, there are other times where they might have to do it, the sprint goal, or you know, exactly, exactly, or it could even be an exercise where, in order to help a teammate learn something different, it might help to handle someone else’s dog to just see some stuff. And in our program, that’s one of the things that we do every day, our dogs, you know, we they have like specific trainers that are you know, assigned to them. But we always want to make sure that they are cooperative with others, and they want to engage. So it’s that idea of looking at these these tests. In you know, a video format from an organization or individual is obviously the first piece of that puzzle, then the other piece, and then obviously replicating said tests on site, once they come out to us as like their formal, official performance screening, that’s another piece as well, right? That’s kind of their step two type of deal. But then as they go through the training program, you know, we then work so hard to make sure, and I could say weeks I was training there so kind of works out. I’m like, wait, I do more than just recruit friends, you know. So, you know, we want that cooperate, the cooperative Toy Play, we want that engagement. One of the things as we talk about our frustration, our dogs have a bark alert, that is their alert, it’s not passive, it is very active. It is a bark alert, and they are trained to bark alert as close to source as they can get, obviously, we odor, state aid or theories, it’s different, you’ve already covered a lot of that anyway, different topic for different days. But you know, as close to source as they can get. But then what happens so when our dogs are up and coming, we teach them that once they get to that close, closest part of you know, point of source, they’re paid from that victim, they are paid from the victim. And that becomes a tug game, which you know, even our ball dogs we learn, we teach them how to tug, you know, they do love it, you know, but that and they might have a different you know, kind of reward sequence after that fact. But, but we want that and the reason being is we want them so close, so close to that hole or whatever. That that is where that pays that is exactly where it pays. And obviously having someone pop it out at the opportune moment is going to help not only strengthen that, but also strengthen the alert itself, in that we’re teaching them to keep barking, keep barking no matter what is happening around you. You keep barking until you are paid with a toy toys way easier. Like the handler brings couple toys on them done. That’s it. Great. We’re set right? Eventually we train the dog to do both. So they not only get that victim rewarding, but later on we teach them how to we teach the handler I say how to appropriately reward the dog so that becomes that idea of all right. They are barking at you know a little hole that is as close to source as possible. So with a verbal marker that we teach them we start to teach our handlers how to aim again I was never those This is never my,
Kayla Fratt
this is one we don’t do we then don’t have the toy hit the source. Like police dog trainers talk about this. I’m always like, Well, yeah, I would fail out of that Academy.
Katie Brennan
I’m like, I can’t do the throwing portion. Like I’m a complete and utter failure. I would rather put on a bite suit. I love it. No. Hey, that’s why with with the Border Collie. I’m like for her research. The other my other two are food right? So they go they do them for food, the shelter and my finished bits. But for her she was a toy dog. So no, we teach the duration and we take we teach yes means come to me for your toy. Thank you. That’s That’s all because we’re not messing with this nonsense. Because I know it’s horrible. But we do teach them. The dog and handler team have to do that as well. So again, it’s the idea of oh my gosh, I’m barking barking and barking this toy came down from the great magical beyond because I am correct. And now it is time to bring it to my handler for a super fun party time. Yeah. So So yeah, it’s it’s a long winded explanation. But but it’s really like I said, it’s about more than just the object itself. It’s about the engagement piece of that. Yeah. Not that you can make food engaging. Don’t get me wrong on it. But it’s just it’s it’s easier to work with in the long run for our dogs
Kayla Fratt
and ourselves thinking about kind of, you know, there’s all sorts of really fascinating discussions that have been happening over the last couple of years on terror stabbings podcast at clicker Expo. Gosh, last click Expo I went to was in 2020.
Katie Brennan
even earlier than that,
Kayla Fratt
In January 2020. In Seattle, when we were still calling COVID.
Katie Brennan
Wuhan he just made it you just made it.
Kayla Fratt
Yeah, no thinking back. I’m like, I wonder how many people got sick at that. Anyway, yeah, you know, talking about how reward type can change the typography of the behavior going forward, and how your antecedent behavior consequences all like a big loop. And by changing the reward or the reinforcer that you’re giving, that can change the behavior you’re, you’re getting. And like, they talk about this a lot in agility, where a lot of times, adding toys will increase that intensity and speed, and these sorts of things that we like to see. But sometimes it’s better to teach things with food first. And I think, for sport people, dog trainers who are really aware of this, that when you know how much toys can bring to the table, as far as creating a very specific flavor of behavior, it often brings us different sort of intensity, which is what we want. So okay, so we’ve got our toys. And you know, I think we kind of understand or we’ve explained, at least again, in most situations, why we’re kind of looking for that intensity that that toys can bring. Then let’s talk about you know, this is something I’ve been meaning to talk about on the show in general. We talked about toy drive, and then we also often talk about hunt drive. And this is so we’re gonna pick on niffler again, and actually I will pick on my two dogs because I think they’re a really good example. Barley. Does the work I asked him to 1,000% because he is obsessed with toys. The only reason he does this is because it is the way to get his squeaky ball on a rope. And he will do anything for it. He will die for it would die for it. I hope he does not. Do that friend niffler on the other hand, is much snappier he, when he was a five week old baby and I went to meet the litter. There was five puppies in a big pile around mom and playing, you know munching under squeegees and whatever. And niffler was like, this was the first time being outside because it was kind of winter in Idaho. And it was the first time they were old enough. So I got to see their first exposure to the outdoors. And niffler had his nose to the ground and was like 40 meters across the across the yard following a deer trail like ready to become red tailed hawk food. Oh my gosh. Yeah, he it’s a good thing. He made it past that, like 1050. Yeah, yeah. Oh my God.
Kayla Fratt
So he is much much snappier. And he’s almost more of if you watch him work, he looks a lot more to me like, like, he’s a ground scenting tracking sort of incline guy. He loves his toys. And his toy drive has been blooming in the last couple of months in particular. Last summer, I was doing a lot of like, it was both food and toys for him in the summer. It’s just toys, he has no interest in it, which has been great to see. So I think they’re a great example of how, you know, you’re looking at the hunt, drive in some ways and the toy drive and other ways. And ideally, we have a lot of both. I think that’s where a lot of us love our labs, or Yeah, you know, some of our Spaniels, some of our pointers, some of those other in kind of other disciplines. I know those weren’t ones you mentioned. So yeah.
Kayla Fratt
You know, and I think let’s talk about how those tests that you’re doing. Examine not just the toy drive, but also that dogs desire To search, which is what we kind of, at least what I mean when I say harddrive Is that what you mean when you say hard drive? Yeah.
Katie Brennan
Yep. That’s that. Is it? That is it? Yeah. So that’s, yes. Great, great stuff. So, so yeah. You know, in going back to that retrieves and possession, right, so in that video, I always, you know, kind of say that, that gives us a baseline for their toy drive, right? And then, obviously, these hunt videos are literally labeled field hunts. So they are, they are different now. I do you know, I do believe that they can be independent of each other, for sure. You’re gonna have a dog that has a kick ass hunt drive, it just might not be for a toy reward. Right? And then you get that dog? Yeah, yeah, I again, I own it. Alright, let’s go. And then you can have, you know, the dog that has that, you know, like zero hunt, drive, they’re like, What the what, like, you kind of have to teach them, you have to really work with them. And thinking of, you know, I’m just thinking of like, a, I’m thinking of a dog that you’re hiding a toy for not rewarding with food, just in this example. But so that dog that you’re, you’re hiding that toy for, right, I do believe that, there is the potential for them to have zero Hunter, if they like they have not only no idea what to do, but even when you’re trying to kind of help them and make it real simple, like, barely putting it in that field of tall grass, like barely hidden, or barely, like behind an object for them to find. They just do not, it’s just not natural for them. But they could still kick butt at retrieving possession, you know, so. So I do believe that it’s, it’s they are separate. They’re not equal. For us, we need a ton of both, like a ton of both. Now, I will say I alluded to my board, or board probably centric today.
Katie Brennan
So you know, I mentioned so she does odor work. And she’s good at it. But it was not natural for Yeah, you know, so if I take her toy, and we’re like playing hard, you know, and I were to when she was younger, you know, I were to throw it into like some bushes or whatever. She’d be like, Whoa, I don’t like where did it I don’t get it. Yeah, and even the easier like, like, I just took this out of your mouth and like, kind of dropped it in this bush or this plants. She’s like, whoa, so I really had to sort of, you know, because I’m me and I need it. I don’t need it for anything, but I just feel like playing with it and a trade, you know, engagement and and framework for. So, you know, I really had to like, push it and we’re still pushing it. Now the difference being now that she’s done more oder work in general, I think she understands that the nose Do you think? But she did not at first it was not natural for her at all. And you know, I will say that there are you know, there are some dogs that we get these videos. And again, they’re choosing possession, no prob, no problem that exercise new place doesn’t matter. No carrying, right. And then we get the hunt. And it’s like, I don’t mean to say lackluster, but it’s lackluster. Like they’re doing the thing but But for us, then it’s that idea of looking at the big picture of the stock, looking at what they’ve shown us within that the hunt series, the three videos and saying All right, so they cut they had like, zero clue on the first one. And it really like they struggled not because it was a hard problem, but they just did not get it. Yeah. And then on the second one, they kind of are getting the idea. And the third one, hey, look, they’re still showing frustration. They’re still mad. Yeah, but they’re getting the ID even more now. So it’s kind of that idea of it might not be exactly 1,000% We always hope it’s 1,000% You know, energy and effort and each piece but you know, there could be times where you’re just like, Okay, this is something that you know, looks like can really be developed and massaged. And let’s let’s give this dog a shot you know, and let’s kind of see what they bring us those cases happen you know all the time. Yeah, they you know, again, they have to kind of show some things off again is super subjective and maybe not super helpful for listeners right now to kind of picture but but yeah, it’s that idea of like, okay, was there frustration so there were they still mad as heck, when the toy went out away from them and they were held back. And then you see that idea of like, alright, so when they were released, they still went into that area like very fast, right? They were they were wanting to go into the vicinity. So then it’s just that one Like maybe a little missing piece of like, alright, they’re doing it, they found it. It might not. It might have been more like you said methodical, maybe a little more methodical, but that might not be a bad thing. And it might just be a matter of, we just got to get them out and kind of start working with them.
Kayla Fratt
Some confidence built some skills. They’ve got the they’ve got the desire. Yes, that’s what I can imagine. And I’m just guessing here, but if I, if I go out and do this with niffler, yeah, after this, which I might, you can imagine he’s going to pull it the collar, he’s gonna vocalize if I make him, wait a minute, he’s gonna be pissed. Yeah, he’s gonna take off like a shot. And then there’s a decent chance that I’m gonna have to try I think I wouldn’t be shocked if he gets out there gets in the vicinity, does some sniffy, sniffy looky looky and then goes off on a track somewhere else. And then like, kind of, and then he does this hilarious thing will he’ll, like come back upon the owner of the toy and be like, Oh, my God, this thing? And then he brings it over. And exactly, we’ve been able to work with that he I’ve not heard with him tracking or quartering in the field or anything like that. Yeah, perfect. But I think he would probably offer you one of those kind of marginal videos where you’re like, Okay, I can, I can see he’s got it here. But he’s not, you know, he’s not coming out of a cannon, knowing what to do.
Katie Brennan
Exactly. Yeah. And again, that that might just be fine. You know, that might just work for us. And, you know, the other kind of piece of this is thinking about, obviously, you know, I mentioned our kind of six slash seven, you know, main reason and mixes thereof, right. But, you know, there are definitely as we know, there are, you know, breed specific dispositions and things that, you know, when you think, for us, if we say, okay, there’s, you know, we’re gonna look at this border collie. Like, I have an idea of what I might see, I already know what I might see. And what you’re describing is what my girl yeah, you know, what I mean? Like this to do and same thing, same sometimes as some of the males that cheese and even some of the German Shepherds sometimes, like, we’ll see, you know, again, herdy things, right? You know, we’ll see that they’re not they don’t come out the gate as strong in the hunt. But since they’re tenacious, they’re toy obsessed, they want to possess so badly, they start to figure it out. Because again, it’s this is the means to the end. So you know, let’s work it. Whereas, you know, again, like we’re thinking, breed stereotyping, but
Kayla Fratt
We do that a lot here. There should just be a blanket disclosure, we know hashtag not all we know, you know, we know not all Border Collies
Katie Brennan
want to get it. But yeah, if you if we get a Labrador golden, we have another potential not that we’re gonna like, marry them on top of each other and compare it that way. But we just have this, this idea of what we might see. Yeah, and what it might look like. The same goes for the frustration hold. Thinking you have an idea?
Kayla Fratt
Yeah, I can’t remember what the episode was. But it was a recent Cameron Ford canine talking sense episode. So as of August 24, I think it was the most recent one if people are trying to go back and find it. And they were talking about the tendency of dogs walking odor, which basically means the dog kind of catches out or shows a change of behavior doesn’t source it fully, or maybe sources it and then doesn’t alert and then just goes on to continue hunting. And they were talking about it as something that they saw much more frequently and pointers in Spaniels than some of these other breeds. And I’ve also seen it. I haven’t worked with many pointers or Spaniels, but I’ve worked with a lot of labs Malinois and Border Collies, and I’ve seen it only in the labs so far, I only have a sample size of maybe a dozen dogs that I’ve worked with enough to really say that but you know, I think like, it’s just all kind of messed up in this like Toy Drive Food Drive drives a little older, like what? What are things like if I saw I was thinking about it the other day, I don’t think I’ve ever seen barley walk odor, and I would be shocked. It might be a vet visit if I saw him walk over, because he is so focused on getting his toy. And that is the only reason he is out here. versus nefler. I would not be as shocked to see him sourcewater because for him, the hunt is part of the fun. He gets the toy the toy is important to him, but not getting the toy is not life and death to him. Yeah.
Kayla Fratt
So you know, it’s just it’s knowing your dog and knowing what you’re looking at. And for you guys, I imagine on the front end, kind of Yeah, what you said like, here are some of the things I might expect to see as like, Okay, we’re gonna give that a b minus on our assessment for this given breed. And that is kind of typical within the breed or breed mix.
Katie Brennan
Exactly. Yeah. And again, it’s you know, it’s yeah, we it’s so I mean, it’s it’s funny too, because we talk about, you know, this, this is our testing, and this is what we do. And this is why we do it. But you know, at the end of the day, it really is individual. It’s there’s so many factors. I mean, and I’m sure it is exactly the same with your, you know, with your work as well, based on our, you know, our relationships with conservation career change partners, you know, it’s, it’s so similar. It’s just like, Okay, I want the full picture like this is this is the full picture profile on the stock. Honor, forget, we have one shelter partner up in Northern California, and they’re like, Oh, love them. And they’re one of their staff when they send us a video. And we have a pretty long history with them. We’ve gotten a few, quite a few docs from them. And they, they call it interviews, it is the cutest thing I’ve ever seen. And they’ll send me a 20 minute YouTube going through all of our exercises all spliced together, and it’ll say, Ladies interview for Search Dog Foundation, like it is, and it just makes my heart so happy because they are literally like here, our vet notes here, behavior notes, here’s anything weird that we’ve observed or whatever backstory like they give the whole nine from the front end, which we’re like, oh, that’s like warm and fuzzy. Wow. Yeah. And that’s our goal with you know, I mean, I’m a big, I’m a nice big picture thinker. I like small picture things, too. But, you know, that is the goal of what we’re trying to do as well is just, you know, again, this is what we look for, this is how to do it. We understand that it is time and effort, energy, but it’s not terribly hard, especially once you’ve done it once. And go, you know, yeah, so that’s kind of, you know, kind of a beautiful thing, you know, to get that type of that type of email being like, here’s everything and we’re like, oh, my gosh, yeah.
Katie Brennan
Exactly. Oh, no, sorry to cut you off. I did want to touch on there’s like two more little video pieces that I know we’ve got to get to career change and I didn’t have mentioned to me exit you know, part of the list. So so we touch on environmental stuff, right environmental exposure, we want to look for if there’s any potential environmental sensitivities for obvious reasons. So one of the ways that we do this is an our noise reaction test. So this one is and I can tell you like it is pretty few and far between that we’ve had a dog make it you know, past the first three videos and the initial kind of, you know, interview process. I’ve not had a dog yet fail this test that’s made it through that far. That being said, there have been dogs were in the initial go around, because I do ask about environmental sensitivities are there any reactions to noises, objects, tactiles, that, you know, surfaces, vehicles can have a dog chasing vehicles, that’d be bad. So, you know, I asked about all that stuff on the front end. So once I’ve passed that, if they say no, then again, there’s never been a dog that’s failed us. So this is like, takes like 10 seconds at the most. So basically, if you have a dog, that’s a tennis ball, you know, throwing type of dog, you would do short pops in the air, just get them to catch it or, you know, they might not be able to catch but it’s funny to watch them try, you know, like that kind of deal. So they’re kind of close in your proximity, it’s not like full at retrieving. Or if they’re a dog that loves to tug, you can just have someone tugging with them during this test. So your other person is gonna have like a couple metal buckets or maybe a metal food dish or something. And basically you want them to either bang something together drop something on the ground just make a loud Starling sound. We want to see that if the dog cares they go back to their toy play pretty readily without much you know fuss and really what ideal is they don’t care at all and they just Yeah, go for it. Obviously it won’t be like at their face doing this although I have thrown things and be like oh gosh, I’m sorry that’s way too close to you like but it’s that idea of loud startle. While you’re in Drive you’re playing actively what does this look like? For us? We’ve had dogs actually then go and after the fact like I was like, you know, short tosses and they kept the camera rolling and we just died so it was like football they just dropped it on concrete you know, kind of near her so this was a melon law I don’t know if that will surprise anyone but I just laughed hysterically like a crazy person for like five minutes after this so basically they’re doing little short you know pops near whatever they dropped the food dish on the ground and they stopped the the toy pops whatever the dog literally goes and then possesses the food bowl like just like oh my god. This is my new toy. Oh my god it really like we died and we’re like, alright, so cool. All right, God, anything’s possible. My apparently good job, she’s like you throw it on the ground for me. Thanks so much. You know, like, Oh my God, it was the funniest thing.
Kayla Fratt
I can’t remember which episode it was. This was an episode of a podcast that I recorded that had some super heavy editing because at some point niffler This was when he was like five months old, grabbed a metal food bowl and was running laps around the apartment against.
Katie Brennan
So that’s great. That’s great. He’s not even in Drive.
Kayla Fratt
Nope, obviously anthropomorphize a little bit. I think it was pissed off that I was in my, like, third hour of podcasting or something. And he was, excuse me, we have to do today,
Katie Brennan
the mind just scream behind me endlessly, forever, because why they’re downstairs completely separated. So we’ve got the noise. So now we’re gonna go to so this is one that is very, I would say very specific to use our disaster search. But it’s, I would, I would venture a guess that not many other organizations would even care about this. So this is the idea of the tactile nerve. Oh my gosh, they’re working on Rubble. Rubble is crazy love. Rubble is dangerous. Rubble is hard, it is challenging for even the most surefooted athletic of creatures. So what we need to see is that the dog has no problem traversing whatever is in their path to get to their beloved toy object. So how do you set this up? We don’t all have rubble piles, we are not all that fortunate. Yeah, the great thing about this test is and I smile about it, because I think it’s just so much fun, but I’m also a complete weirdo. But you can be so creative with how you do this testing. So let’s So thinking of, you know, obviously, something akin to rubble would be like, you know, pile rocks, or a pile of concrete or, you know, like a, you know, construction II type area, which you might find, you might find that somewhere, a shelter I went to, in New Jersey to evaluate a dog, literally abutted to like a, like garden, not like a garden center, but one of those ones that had all the rocks and the pavers, like, that type of so we asked them and they were like, yeah, come on, in. I was like, sweet, you know, so like, we have like, a pile of papers. And we’re just like, here’s your ball, go get ball dogs, like, cool. God, you know, like, so it was it was super convenient. I’ve had people do like, you know, home supply stores. And the problem is, you might get in trouble. But you might not. So just be careful. But even things like okay, there’s a lower shelf, which obviously a metal shelf is going to be a little slick. So if you roll the toy on that, will the dog go on the shelf after it. Does that look like not only do we then have the service at the bottom, but then we have potentially like they have to kind of crawl a little bit they have to get above them. It’s like a 3d who sort of any of the carts they have. They’re like, well, the dog jump on and ride a cart. What does this look like? Well, they jump on some mulch bags. Sometimes some of the plants are kept on like, I guess for drainage purposes, right for watering. Sorry, filling water is what I say. So, you know, it’ll be on like, kind of not chainlink per se, but the kind of perforated. Yeah, so like, if you put a ball on there, obviously, not all plants are on it, please, you definitely get in trouble. But if there’s an empty one and you put the ball well they jump on. Will they walk together? Like what does this look like? There’s so many cool things. Children’s playgrounds. Oh, yeah. Put the ball out there. Well, they climb the steps. Will they go over like a wobble bridge? You know, I’ve even seen some that have kind of a an elevated you know, tunnel type thing that’s like plastic, you know, for children to go through? Uh huh. Well, dog go through it. I don’t know. You know, let’s try it. We that’s like, kind of like the possibilities are endless. So it sounds like a fun part of the test.
Katie Brennan
I love it. I think it’s fantastic now. Now say we can’t take the dog anywhere. We’ve got to work with what we got. So does your shelter get pallets of dog food? Can you pile some pallets up? Does it have to be super high? Do you have any fit paws equipment? Do you have Kranti beds? Do you have you know dog crates that you can wire crates you can fold up I like to turn them upside down because then the tray kind of Yeah, just so you don’t get caught toes to get stuck. But can you do something like that? Can you put all of those objects in a corner the dog has to go there to get to their toy which you’re gonna –
Kayla Fratt
Get like folding, you know, like folding chairs and folding them down. Yeah. work you can do the shelters are gonna have folding chairs
Katie Brennan
Absolutely. Do you have a vet clinic or other food preparation room? Can you put the toy on the counter? Will the dog jump on the counter? afterwards? Will the dog jump over a half door? It’s like there’s so many like, cool potentials. Yeah, we’ve even just had, you know, I’ve had counters I’ve had, well, the dog on a swivel chair. Yeah, while it can go in motion, we’ve actually had one where they threw the ball into obviously a not running it is turned off it it was unplugged dryer, what does this look like? Well, they go and wicked, right? So you know, and obviously, if there’s any dog type equipment, like a little a frame or a little, like, agility type of dealy? Will they do that, too? So yeah, there’s really a lot of possibility. Now the caveat for this. We don’t, we don’t care at this at this test, or tactile nerve assessment tests. We don’t care if they hunt for the toy, it’s potentially inevitable, they might have to if it kind of gets lost in the fray of the structure, or you know the objects, but we don’t, we don’t require it. Exactly. So it’s really just that idea of hold the dog back throw the toy or kind of place the toy appropriately into this area, will they go up over on to whatever to get it. One of the mistakes people make is they’ll just have the dog just do like a jumping over. Not exactly what we need to see. The reason being is they’re not just going to jump over the rubble pile, they’ve got to get on to it. Right. And they have to walking on it exactly. I think wobbling things moving, you know, really unstable surfaces. But again, if they won’t even attempt that tells us a lot.
Kayla Fratt
How do you control for say, a dog’s been in a foster home? Or maybe they maybe they are an own dog that is a candidate for rehoming? situation? I can imagine. Pretty sure both of my dogs would not barley might go up on a counter, because of the amount of training we’ve kind of done. So is that the sort of, like how do you control for the possibility of like, it’s not a tactile thing, it’s a train thing this dog knows not to counter surf, and he’s not spun up enough to blow blow through his training.
Katie Brennan
So the I mentioned, you know, in the last one, that we also have had some really wonderful inbound career change organization, Oh, yeah. Service, dog work. Um, I can tell you that it doesn’t seem to be very challenging for them to make that issue. a non issue,
Kayla Fratt
I can just imagine a different way to set it up, like I would just be like, I don’t, you don’t do –
Katie Brennan
And the other thing, you know, as as a whole, you know, especially with these hard drive dogs, and even with pet dogs that aren’t as hard drive, you know, the idea of, you know, leave it is very important for many, many things, as we know. So this idea of teaching impulse control is is hugely important. In the pet dog world, obviously, in the service dog world. And for us, too. We teach it as well. And I’m sure you do as well, just different, different ways. So it’s kind of, you know, it’s kind of funny, because even with all that training, and we get it, we totally get it. There are definitely dogs that, you know, the people will say like, this is the caveat, this dog has never been allowed to do any of this. And we specifically do not allow XYZ Yeah, but I can tell you that once they start allowing it, it kind of goes away pretty quick. That makes sense. Yeah. And what the the other reason that I liked the idea of the whole back in the throw, is again, you’re getting field vibes, right of this frustration. So I still want to see if we can use that frustration and potential for over arousal to kind of not only maybe get them through something, you know, hopefully there’s no tactile issues, right. But it might get them through a little something. If there’s like a little it might not be necessarily an uncomfortability. But it just like unknowing, like I’ve never done this before as a dog like what what you know, yeah. So it’s, it’s a little combo of that, right? It’s kind of bridging that that idea of like, Alright, you’ve had a ton of impulse control as a like, almost graduated, you know, guide dog. Right. You know, so how do we how do we undo it? They they really revert back pretty quickly. And a lot of times they are i i feel like again, Anthem bathro for whatever that word. Thank you, friend. I love it. I do know what that word means. I swear to you If it doesn’t come off the tongue easy. So in that vein, I’m gonna say it as well. It’s almost like, you feel like there’s a relief for like, I can do it. Yeah, oh, I can do it and then gone. And at that point in time, to be quite honest, we have, at that point, you know, they’ve been released from their program for a reason.
Kayla Fratt
You also have enough context, and you can kind of see, I feel like, it’s not that hard to see from the body language for an experienced person in particular. Okay, this is the difference between a dog who has been trained to wait for a release cue versus a dog who is afraid to do something. And I got that question once I was doing a demo. And Tom Aaron from fetch masters training was there and he does a lot of field trials, a lot of you know, hunting dog work. And we were kind of going through our similar assessment procedure. And that was one of the first questions he had is like, Well, how would you counteract or understand a dog who has been trained to sit and wait? And I was like, well, we can kind of still you can still see that anticipatory tense Yes, tension, exactly going in a dog who is holding it together.
Kayla Fratt
Patreon book club is in full swing! We just finished up Detector Dogs and Scent Movement by Tom foster camp and are about to start Canine Ergonomics: The Science of Working Dogs, to join our book club for three bucks a month, head on over to patreon.com/canine conservationists. We also offer monthly group coaching sessions for aspiring handlers, puppy raisers and pros, as well as a monthly rotation of free webinars, workshops and roundtables with experts. Again, three bucks a month, up to 25 bucks a month, kind of depending on what level of support you want to give and receive. Check that out at patreon.com/k9conservationists. I hope to see you join us there soon.
Kayla Fratt
We really need to talk about career changes.
Katie Brennan
All your time. It’s all my good.
Kayla Fratt
I know. It’s okay. I just I do actually have another meeting and 20 minutes. Oh, my gosh, all right, let’s go to questions. We’re going to try to keep it keep it in 20 minutes. What? What are some of the things that you see where a shelter says, Hey, or volunteer says, Hey, I think I found a dog that’s going to be a great fit for you. And what do you see kind of between that point, and you taking the dog on where that dog doesn’t come home with you for whatever reason, or doesn’t go home with that stuff. And I’m kind of particularly thinking about this through the lens of, say you’re at a shelter, or you are a trainer, and you’re looking at a dog, just being aware of some things that maybe if you know, this is in the dog’s history, or you know, it’s in their behavior, you kind of know that it may not work out.
Katie Brennan
So yeah, so So kind of that in between realm, obviously, upfront, we ask a lot of questions. You know, we might even get some video that’s just kind of sent to us, you know, for whatever reason, they already have some footage, cool stuff. So, you know, for us, all of the elements of the assessment that I talked about me to be pretty darn strong, they just, they just have to be it’s just the nature of what we need in our in our program. And also guarantee, you know, try as much as you can to guarantee success for that dog, although obviously, all dogs in our program are successful. We never want to diminish that as well. But, you know, some of the things that we might see, in particular in terms of behavior would be probably reactivity is probably a big one. Thinking about thinking about our training environment, thinking about their lives, not only as as family pets, but also is working companions and partners for their handlers. Most of our handlers are firefighters. I probably should have mentioned that like at the beginning of this podcast, but here we are. Who are who then work for FEMA teams. Right? So cool. I got the fire house. Yeah, it’s pretty wicked. And the other part of it is all of our dogs are donated to them. So no handler ever asked to pay for their dog. So some good stuff. Good stuff, right. So So in that vein, you know, maybe being at the firehouse maybe in a kennel type setting there just for comfortability instead of being in a crate or maybe just in the crate, you know, they need to be you know, we need to not worry that they’re going to have you know, a barrier issue, right? Aggression, frustration, right frustration that could grow into aggression, that kind of stuff. So, again, we’re thinking unicorn creatures we get it, but that is probably one of the biggest things. The other thing to think about too is length of stay of the dog. We understand that a dog that is high drive, high energy in a shelter setting With not as much resource to get them out and engaged, and enriched, is going to have a hard time, we completely understand that. The idea is, obviously, we would like to get them out as quickly as possible, because even in our kennel environment, they there is a ton of enrichment, a ton, a ton a ton, and obviously, ton of engagement and play and training throughout the day for all of our dogs, whether they’re in our training program, or waiting for their career change, or lifetime care home doesn’t matter, they all get a ton of activity. So kind of one of the things that we look for in that realm is also just thinking of, okay, we understand that it is a possibility for a dog’s behavior to diminish, they could get stressed, they could get anxious, we understand. However, we do need to keep that in mind, because they are going to be in a kennel type environment, there are going to be, you know, maybe having some FOMO feelings every once in a while. And, you know, as long as it’s just like, you know, they’re just barking maybe to bark or whatever, and just try anything else we can, we can work it. And we can even work a little bit of of that type of thing, if that kind of comes up right, from the get go from the start, it’s something we have to be, we have to be very aware of, and just take into account when we’re looking at the full picture of the sock. Because we never want to take a dog into our program and put them on our site. And with them being uncomfortable, it is not our goal, it is not part of it, even if we can help them along the way. They’re still gonna have to be there. And we just we just don’t want them to feel uncomfortable. So for us, it would be a matter of okay, well, we’ve, we’ve seen this video and the dog looks great in terms of XYZ. They’re not a candidate because of this particular issue, maybe a reactivity issue. So then we immediately can think okay, so what career change potentials do we have in our back pocket to maybe hook the shelter up with or rescue or what individual immediately so that they can start that next process? The other cool thing about it too, is once they’ve gotten some videos from us, I do it all the time I go in I label videos like each dog gets a folder, it’s it’s a little thing. Yeah. So we are more than happy if they’ve sent us videos to send them back labeled ready to go pass that along with your organization. Let’s put a profile together for the sock. Let’s go. Let’s make it easy, right? You don’t have to redo it. You already did it. Let’s you have it along. You know, it’s your video. So that’s kind of the biggest thing for us, I think probably like one of the kickers, the other thing that comes into play a lot too, which you we probably wouldn’t think about I mentioned the noise thing is usually pretty, pretty good once you’ve gotten past that initial question about it. But that tactile stuff, you know, that can be really hard, that can be hard for a lot of dogs. Once we bring them out to site, our tactile assessment is on a rubble pile like it is on one of the easier side of one of our piles, but it’s still on rubble. So, you know, we have to make sure they’re comfortable and confident in traversing this. So I think you know, those are kind of two of the big, the big things. And again, for a dog that checks all the boxes and might not have the tactile Oh, yeah, there are huge possibilities for the stock, right. And another thing we have to think about, too, I mentioned they’re strangers everywhere. We get dogs out all the not all the time. But we get dogs out that sometimes, initially are like, Alright, let’s go. As the work gets harder, the searches get harder. They suddenly are like, Oh, okay, and then there are new victims victims. They’ve never met victims. They’re going in blind never meeting. Yeah, sometimes that can be a thing for some dogs. So we
Kayla Fratt
It really doesn’t bother me on my day to day, but if you I’m imagining, oh, I don’t know. Yeah, there are some things but then if you put me in the middle of like, while I was sitting down and taking the GRE two years ago, if that same thing was happening, I might find it much more distressing.
Katie Brennan
Yes, exactly. So that’s huge, you know, we need to make sure everybody’s good and everybody’s happy. In the end, for the dog they are playing, they’re they’re working for their toy and their engagement with their handler or their victim depending on the scenario and if it’s training or deployment or whatever. So, you know, we need to make sure for everybody safety, that the dog is enjoying the work as you know, right? So it’s, you know, it’s just a matter of trying to make sure to the best of our ability. We’re not trying to fit that square peg in the round hole. And that that’s where great organizations you know, like yours and other conservation. You know, single purpose law enforcement. I mean, we’ve had some Dover’s law enforcement, research detection bedbug, you know, like, yeah, you name things it you know, that’s where this all comes to play. We’ve had some dogs. All right, the rebels a thing, oh my gosh, but they are no problem the wilderness and they are amazing, right? So we’ve had some, you know, the victim engagement is like, Ah, so well can they do human remains? What does that look like? Right? So, so it’s just all about, you know, our training team as they’re working with these dogs from that initial point of meeting them. And from our initial screening videos, really just getting this feel and if we can help that connection happen, even if again, it’s a dog that’s not going to come out to us for whatever reason, and we can help that connection. Like, right away, oh, we are all about it with that is that is like the ultimate right? It’s just this big village, this grouping of all these, you know, orgs that want to use rescue and shelter dogs, and let’s help them along the way. Let’s go.
Kayla Fratt
I mean, fundamentally, like when I when we were doing our pre interview, and over the last two hours, you know, it’s, I keep thinking like, oh my gosh, it is like I, if I don’t breed my own next dog, which is a possibility. I would love the idea of getting one from you, because you guys have done so much of the legwork to, like, feel like for us if a dog passes your exams, the only question we have left is wildlife. Yeah, maybe maybe a little bit of a simplification, but I you know, because you guys are already so rigorous. And you’ve got a whole team. You’ve got a whole system. Yeah, yeah. Really? Really? Yeah, for sure. All are doing.
Katie Brennan
No. And that’s, that’s actually also one of the things we look at because we’re we are 125 acres in a canyon in Southern California. We’ve got wildlife, we’ve got wildlife. So you know, the dogs are off leash searching they have to be it’s horrible. There are no leashes we’re the nothing we can do for safety, obviously, they are naked while searching that, you know, they have to be so you know, sometimes we’ll put like a GoPro on for funsies you know, but but the majority they’re naked. So you know, it’s a thing that we also are on the lookout or they’re going to critter, there are lizards everywhere there are rabid, or rattlesnakes, which is terrifying but pretty good at rattle our rattlesnake protocols pretty darn good. We’re we had 25 years of practice, unfortunately, that aspect, but you know, it’s it’s that idea of you know, livestock if we can get info on livestock at a time. Oh, you better believe we love to see it. So, you know, if there’s been any bite incidents or any incidents of aggression towards livestock, even cats, we have to say no, because of the nature of what we do. You know, if it’s an unknown, it’s an unknown. And we’ll we’ll kind of work it and we’ll see if there’s any issue. But yeah, it’s we definitely try to have everything for you all sorted out. If it’s a dog, that’s that’s out on site, we know a lot about that creature, and we want to pass it along, we want to pass along that info, The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, right? To our partners, as well, as we’re giving updates on their dogs, which we do all the time. And as a part of my my job is giving the updates again, the good, the bad, the ugly, we don’t want it to be a surprise. We want to celebrate the successes, even if the success is all right, we notice XYZ. So you know, there might not be a fit for disaster search at this time. But hey, we have a single purpose law enforcement organization ready, like willing and ready, you know, because we’ve been able to send them the stocks profile. So yeah, so it’s it’s a lot of stuff. And there’s a lot of levels. But, you know, we’re we’re very fortunate to again, have some, some wonderful donor sponsors, we’re nonprofit, you know, again, we don’t eat these dogs. That’s part of our mission. So yeah, and again, we’re fortunate, we’re fortunate. And we don’t discount that. So that’s why right, we’re like, well, let’s help each other let’s, let’s help as much as we can. So it takes a village.
Kayla Fratt
Quick question, maybe as one of our last ones. If someone’s listening, and you know, they are really thinking they want to get into conservation dog work, but maybe they’re not officially hired anywhere yet. Would they be a candidate to adopt a Lifetime Care dog from you all? Or are you really looking to only place these dogs with kind of established working dog trainers or does it depend?
Katie Brennan
No, so So we kind of have we’re kind of all about that fit, right? So we’re about finding the fit, finding the fit for the dog in terms of the type of work or what they might want to do. We definitely again Just like anything, there’s levels to the dogs. So you know, we’ve got some that you can be like, oh, yeah, like this one. Oh, slam dunk working world. Oh my gosh, gonna rock almost any detection you try with this creature? Yeah, we have some that are you know more like, like with some dry building with some work like we see some great potential. So you know and then we have ones that were like Oh friend, a friend for a sport, you had a great time during your shelter assessment that you came to us and you just were like, wow, you know and again, environments. It’s a it’s a Kenyan wildlife things smells dogs, yeah,
Kayla Fratt
We had one dog that the way we described him, it was like, yeah, he seems to want to do detection as a party trick, but doesn’t really want to be able to do it for his job. And he went on to be and I think he actually got adopted by one of the staff members, family members and is like an active companion there. Yeah, he freed up until the searches were like 20 minutes long. And then he was like, you know, man, this is too hard. I don’t really want to do this. And this is a lot. And sure, that’s something that we could have fixed with a crazy good training plan and time and dedication and training. But I think fundamentally, maybe one of the things we can close with here is just that understanding that there is a difference for a working dog organization that is trying to get dogs up to being deployment ready. And you are at home with your dog who’s maybe a little bit more marginal. And you can pour those times time and resource. And, you know, we’re not saying that every single dog working dog ever has to meet all these criteria. We’re saying that for you. And, you know, to a lesser degree, but similar for us here at Canaan conservationists, we’re looking for these really specific dogs that we can move through the program relatively cleanly and quickly. Yes. Precisely. And we don’t get really creative with because that’s not our goal. Our goal is to get the work done.
Katie Brennan
Yes, exactly. And, and in thinking about exactly that, getting the work done. So we have handlers, that and teams that are looking for dogs, and you know, we’re meeting a need, right? It’s, it’s just what it is. And it’s that idea of exactly that. It’s like the time the resource, the energy that could be put into the stock who, you know, you’re not sure anyway, for whatever reason, maybe you know, and maybe they’re just going to be happier, just to go do this type of workout. And then they light up and you’re like, oh, yeah, that’s it. That is, we want them to love this.
Kayla Fratt
There’s one thing. And I think, again, this is something like people in the sport dog world may or may not be more familiar with, but it’s a really hard conversation is could I coax this dog into being competition ready and agility? Can I get this dog prepared to trial? That the answer may be yes, but does the dog really want it? And for sport dogs, maybe it’s okay that you have to do a lot of coaxing and training and work to get there. But for us for working dogs, we need dogs who want it. They’re asking us for it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, fundamentally, one of the bottom lines here that is also really jumping out to me is I think there’s this fundamental gap in you know, if you’re walking down the row of kennels at a shelter, and you’re looking at the dogs, and when I used to hear this all the time, when I was at the shelter, they’d be looking at some dog that’s bouncing and bouncing and bouncing and spinning and barking and barking and spinning and barking and, you know, they’re like, Oh, my God, that dog needs a job, like we should reach out to a working dog organization. And I think if you get anything out of these two hours, that is not enough, that is not sufficient. And we are not just looking for the crazies. We’re not just looking for high energy. We have a lot of other questions to ask. And I think from a shelter workers perspective, that’s one of the hardest things because I remember we had several dogs back when I was at dumb friends League, again, who had the energy and were higher arousal, but did not have drive, did not have focus, maybe had some weird social stuff going on. And those are really, really tough placements. And I have a ton of empathy for shelters that are dealing with those dogs because again, they deteriorate in a lot of cases in the structure. But unfortunately, we’re not. We’re not rescue organizations. We can’t just take on charity cases, they have to be able to do the work for us. And I think like that sucks. That’s a bummer of us. I know final night.
Katie Brennan
Right? And you know, shameless plugging, only because you said I could. So you’re feeling sorry about that. Stolen, so again, it is it is August 24. All right at this present moment of recording this and you You know, we are we are looking at completing a webinar all about how to assess a not just a search job candidate, but a working dog potential in a shelter or rescue organization, or individual, if you if you want to take a look, see, that will definitely be something that’s going to be available. On our website, we haven’t figured out all of the specifics, because you know, things take time. But, um, you know, our website is Search Dog foundation.org. And obviously, you know, we’re on Facebook at National Disaster Search Dog Foundation and Search Dog Foundation on Instagram. So there will be mentions of it if you follow any of that social stuff. And you know, our goal is, again, we’re gonna have this, no super promises, because it’s got to be completed and approved first, but we have gotten some kind of initial approvals from CCPD. T to have this approved for CEUs. Again, we get it you guys are busy in a shelter rescue, you don’t have oodles of time. So how can we make some incentive? What is this incentive, so so that is a coming attraction and other coming attraction on our website is something we’ve been wanting to do for a while is to kind of collect some great resources that will hopefully, maybe help you guys with enrichment, maybe some toy played demo stuff, like to maybe try and engage these potential working dogs or just high activity friends that are in your kennels that again, hopefully are going to be super time consuming for you. But hopefully, you’ll be able to see a great impact, you know, in working with them, and maybe you’re gonna sleep one day for a little bit like sleeping is good. We like when you’re able to sleep.
Katie Brennan
We enjoy it. So coming attractions. Definitely, yeah,
Kayla Fratt
We’ll be sure to link all of that in the show notes. And, yeah, hopefully, all of those things are up and available by the time this podcast is up and available. So is there anything else you wanted to add or circle back to or plug before we wrap up here?
Katie Brennan
No, I mean, I think we kind of covered it, um, you know, any questions for, for me in particular, again, I’ll just say it even though it might be like linked to but, you know, feel free to shoot us an email to our recruitment. So it’s recruitment at Search Dog foundation.org. And we also have on our website, a like refer dog kind of application. So if you’re listening and you might have you’re working with a dog and you’re like, Whoa, hello. You know, you should see it up on the right hand side on our main page it literally says refer a dog so it’s quite easy to find. Now are we doing our website you know, as happens every few years or so often, so it might not live exactly there for too much longer, but we’ll make sure it’s free. It shouldn’t be hard to find. Yeah, you’ll figure it out and like I said, you can always just email recruitment at search fetish network. And a member of our recruitment team will get back to you so I’m I’m thrilled I got to talk with you! And wow we talked a whole lot, all right, good job, us!
Kayla Fratt
I know, I still feel like it was rushed on like half of this topic; well, we knew it was gonna go long. So for everyone at home, thank you for sticking with us for two weeks in a row talking all about screening shelter dogs, we learned a lot. You can find transcripts, show notes, buy merch, donate, find our webinars all that good stuff. It’s all over at k9 conservationists.org. Join the Patreon if you want to join our book club and group coaching calls. Again k9conservationists.org. Well, without further ado, everyone at home will be back in your earbuds next week with another great topic. Thank you so much for listening.