In this episode of K9 Conservationists, Kayla speaks with Gregory Herin from Getxent to discuss Getxent tubes.
Links Mentioned in the Episode:
- Dr. Mallory DeChant and Dr. Hall research on odor thresholds
- University of Otago Graduate Thesis
- Getxent Product Sheet
- Getxent response to thesis publication. PDF below
You can support the K9 Conservationists Podcast by joining our Patreon at patreon.com/k9conservationists.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 0:09
Hello and welcome to the canine conservationists podcast where we’re positively obsessed with conservation detection dogs. Join us every week to discuss ecology, odor dynamics, dog behavior and everything in between. I’m your host, Kayla Fratt. And I run canine conservationist along with my co founders, where we trained dogs to detect data for researchers, agencies and NGOs. Today I have the joy of talking to Gregory Heron from the get sent tubes form from get said about the GeTSET tubes. So Greg has an academic background because combining science eCPM Strausberg and business from HEC Paris, after 10 years of working for international companies designing best customer fit products, the time was right to shape Greg’s vision, which is designed to design a unique innovation, enabling disease detection of population safety and environmental protection. And that is what they strive for every day with Gatson. Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast, Greg. Hello. So I’m really excited to get to this interview. But before we dive into it, we’re going to get into our science highlight, which is non invasive identification of herpetofauna, pairing conservation dogs with genetic analysis by Stratham at all which was published in the Journal of wildlife management in 2020. The goal of this study was to explore the viability of pairing conservation detection dog service searches and non invasive genetic analysis to gather information on blunt nose leopard lizard presence within an area of documented or potential occurrence. And it’s important to note that these blacknose Leopard lizards are a federally listed endangered species. More specifically, the study aimed to recover scat samples and then subsequently recovered DNA from those samples and the develop tools to genetically discriminate the squid between the Scouts of the target and sympatric lizards. So other lizards that were similar and in the same area, but not the target lizard. This study is a really interesting example of successful or successful molecular eschatology techniques. dog handler teams from working dogs for conservation collected 327 Scouts samples across four years of surveys. During the 2014 to 2016 seasons, they identified 93.3% of the successfully type samples as being from the target species again blunt nose leopard lizard. However, in 2017 50, and 57% of the samples were from the target species, and 35% were from the Western Whiptail lizard. They the author suggests that this difference is because the 2014 to 2016 surveys were only conducted conducted in the Pinot plateau, where Western whipped whipped lizards are absent or at very low densities. However, in 2017, their study added the Elkhorn Platt plane, where Western Whiptail lizards occurred at a higher density. So basically, when there are more Western Whiptail lizards, they collect more Western Whiptail lizards as a non target species, which makes a lot of sense. One of the things that we noted as we were kind of reading this study was that the detection distance was really small, so they’re talking kind of zero to two meters on average and up to five to six meters. So the healers were actually directing the dogs to search for scouts around perimeters of shrubs. Within open designated open microsites and along unpaved roads, on average, they searched about 35 shrubs or microsites, or a linear distance of 1.5 to two kilometers along the roads, which hidden within about one two hours a day. So this study showed an example of nontarget issues where the dogs were detecting scat from a non target species. And because the handlers can’t tell the difference, they were likely erroneously reinforcing the wrong scent repertoire along with our correct one. One other limitation we noted with this study was that the small was the small detection distance and to quote the author’s they said for the presence absence objective Central’s regulatory monitoring the entirety of a defined area, regardless of shrub presence or density needs to be surveyed. And to continue the quote, additional research will, will be necessary to determine if grid searching for the scout of bluntness liberalism is indeed a feasible and viable application of conservation dogs relative to the criteria required for regulatory monitoring. And I love this study because I always I always really enjoy kind of finding and picking out these areas where you know, conservation dogs kind of succeeded within a pilot study or within this is obviously much more of a than a pilot study, it was you know, three years long, but potentially for this this larger goal of presence absence monitoring the dogs may or may not be the best fit. So, without further ado, we will get Greg back on and ask him what exactly is a get sent to for anyone who has not heard of them yet.
Unknown Speaker 4:36
So again, Sen tube is a product like training ads that you can use to catch and capture any others. And once your door is captures, your door is released and you can use to train your dog.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 4:51
Okay, so how and why did get sent develop them? You know, in your bio, it’s it sounds like you’re an adventurer, you’re a tinkerer, you’ve got got big dreams. But you know, you’ve said yourself, you’re not a dog guy. So where where did this come to? How did this come to you?
Unknown Speaker 5:08
You know, I would like to say by chance, I met some dog trainers. So, yeah, we met some dog trainers, we’ve we’ve my friend Quentin. And and they started to explain to us that they use cotton goes to capture all the holes, but it was a big fail. It was difficult for the dog to learn, Theodore, it was difficult, you know, we noticed a lot of excitation from the dogs and your visit to us. Yeah, I would like to get something to catch another like other sponge that I can use everywhere without any restriction. And we say yes, we can make it for you. And we started like that, you know, and we had our ID to use, like, what we call copolymer block technology. And the big deal was to select the right blocks. And and we spent a few years in research and development. And, and after that, we got our first patents. So it was back in 2018.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 6:09
Okay, yeah. So you’re only you’re only like four years old as a company.
Unknown Speaker 6:12
We are a brand new company, and we are new in the field. And we are yes, as I said, we are not specialists. So we are learning everyday with you guys on the field. And so we, today we are learning so it’s we are the learning curve. We also learned with new applications, because today we have new application coming every day, especially in the world of conservation, where it’s very many, many different type of species plants. So it’s, it’s great.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 6:46
Yeah, yeah, well, and I know, like, we’ll talk about this later in the show, but just I mean, especially in conservation, but also realistically, for human remains detection for law enforcement. Like, there’s so many times where, you know, compared to like a competitive set work person, it is so hard for us to acquire store or transport are odors. And there’s often a lot of either practical or legal issues involved. So I know that’s been a huge component of why I’ve been enjoying using the get scent tubes.
Unknown Speaker 7:18
It’s because your order is really complex. And also it’s sometimes it’s protected with where you cannot go everywhere with with some specialists. Sometimes it’s very invasive. So yeah, it’s really, really difficult. But yeah, I keep saying that, you know, what you are doing in conservation? It’s, it’s the most complex discipline, because it’s really a complex order.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 7:42
Yeah, yeah, it. I mean, I don’t know enough about the molecular side of things to say that our stuff is the most complex, but, you know, it kind of inherently makes a lot of sense to me that we have these very complex, you know, it’s organic chemistry, that, you know, just vary so much. And it’s something we talk about on the dog side, and I can imagine that makes, you know, these tubes are really interesting. And, you know, so for anyone who hasn’t yet seen these get sent tubes, can you kind of describe what they look like. And, you know, so
Unknown Speaker 8:18
to the shape, the shape is like a tube. And we designed like a tube, because when you place the tube on the surface, you limit the interaction between the tube and the surface. You know, it’s it was a way, because you know that in your field, you are so careful about the pollution, the contamination. And you know, at the beginning, when we started to say, let’s design the tube, finally, we noticed that we don’t have any contamination due to the molecular structure of the product. But it was a way to limit limit the interaction and also to optimize the exchange with the outside. So if you look at the tube, you have a surface, the outer surface and the inner surface. So you have to ask twice more exchange with, with the environment services in order to improve the release as well.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 9:16
Okay, yeah. And this is actually this isn’t causing a question I was planning on asking you, but is now kind of making sense to me. So are your polymer blocks on the inside? Is it like different chemicals on the inside of the tube that the outside so like, the outside is more of a surface thing? Or is it all the same?
Unknown Speaker 9:32
It’s all the same, but you have a two phenomena will work when when you catch molecules. So the first things the molecule will be absorbed at the surface and then it will be absorbed inside. So it’s two concepts is absorption, absorption. So one is with a D, and the other one will be so it’s to get a minute, so yeah, so that’s Austrian is what What you get on the surface, most of the time when you use cotton goes, it’s adsorption, the molecule will stay at the surface. So it means if you wash the cotton goods, you won’t get any molecules inside the material anymore on the surface of the material. So in our case, you go outside, you use the tube as some dust on it or some burden such that you can clean the tube. So you use tap water, you clean the tube, and you can still use use it again, because the molecules are inside inside the material. So it’s what we call.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 10:35
Okay. Oh, that’s fascinating. Yeah, I feel like I’m gonna have to try this with my dogs now not because I don’t believe you, but just because like I have to see it. Yeah, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 10:46
I’ll video Don’t worry.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 10:50
Okay, so we I think you’ve already kind of hinted at this question. But I’ve got a Patreon question from Taylor, who’s asking if there’s a specific scent that these tubes are geared towards.
Unknown Speaker 11:02
We have developed what we use was the technology what we call COPPA email, blog technology, and we designed subblocks to catch any type of chemistry. So today, there is no limitation on the design, and also based on the feedback that we are collecting every day. We don’t have any limitations. So yeah, I cannot say it’s, it has been designed to catch everything. So not not to be limited. And it’s what we noticed everyday, you know, sometimes you you design something in the lab, and after when you go on the field, it can be different, but in our case, it’s one one. So we have the same results.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 11:46
Yeah, well, that kind of makes sense. Because what you’ve described, it’s not like, you know, when I imagine thinking back to like my neuro, my neuroscience classes or something where you’re thinking about, you’ve got these neurotransmitters that are specific, specifically designed to accept a dopamine and then they can get hijacked by a drug or something. So this isn’t that this is more it allows for that adsorption and absorption of basically any size of odor molecule. It’s not, it’s not specifically shaped in a way to accept and then hold on to like, a specific voc related to marijuana or something like that.
Unknown Speaker 12:26
And exactly, so it has been molecules, because, you know, our product is used in many different field is used for defense application like narcotics explosives, but also in conservation, where you have a big, I would say, a lot of molecules. So in your case you need we have to catch everything.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 12:46
Yeah. Okay. And then what is the long jet Giovanni of the tube like, like, from the moment that I? Well, we can talk about actually, from the moment that I open and unseal the bag? Do I kind of have a tick ticking time bug with the bag with the tubes left in the bag?
Unknown Speaker 13:02
So when you open your bag, you mean once impregnated, or
Kayla Fratt (KF) 13:07
when the ones that are still inside? Let’s start with those. So like, I’ve taken two, and then I’ve re sealed it are the ones in there good for five years, I guess. No wonder
Unknown Speaker 13:19
the bag is new, you can you can keep it two years. And at the end of two years, you can send us free chips, and we can validate to extend the shelf life. So for example, we have people that are buying 1000 chips at once. So you know, we research quantity, you know, if you want to keep it three years, four years, we are doing this kind of service to extend the shelf life. But normally, it’s two years. So when once you use it, you can use it during six months. It’s in average, because based on the data that we have, we know that we can do it much more depending on the order or depending on the weight we create, depending on the training condition, but what we get we would like to guarantee to our users is that they can use it during six months.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 14:05
Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Unknown Speaker 14:07
24 hours, different creations. So you need to create the tube 24 hour at least.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 14:13
Okay, yeah, if you only impregnated for, say an hour, would it still be good for six months and just add
Unknown Speaker 14:21
one hour? We have some data that it can’t last? It depends, you know, but several weeks, but it depends on how you train and how many how many hours to train.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 14:35
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, and then the last question from Taylor was whether there were any kind of fun, interesting science or stories from the actual product development phase.
Unknown Speaker 14:49
Yeah, it was I don’t have any fun. Friends, fun stories about the tubes, you know, it was hard work a long, long development. What I can do And, you know, some people, they imagine that the most complex things is to design the polymer and design the material, but the most complex things is to produce a product without any other insight. So it was our big challenge is why we spend most of our time in research and development is to is to make it you know, without any other for you, because when you you have a product with order inside, it’s really difficult to offset the solder during training. So it’s why we wanted to bring it the cleanest product as possible. And, and we did it, but it was a long, long, long road.
Unknown Speaker 15:45
Yeah, yeah, that, that makes sense. Ya know,
Unknown Speaker 15:48
today’s produce like, like, medicines. So we produce a tube in medicine, like you, oh, you produce medicines with the same process. And on top, we have what we call a cleaning process that we are doing in house. That takes several days. So
Kayla Fratt (KF) 16:05
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, how do you how do you validate that something is odorless? Is that through mass spec? Or how is that? Yeah, exactly.
Unknown Speaker 16:14
So all our all our bags, all our production, or our batches, they are analyzed with our method on the mastic. So we use what we call gas chromatography, mass spectroscopy. equipment, so we run so we we see something flat, and when it’s flat, we can cheat. So it’s, it’s a validation. And, you know, some people will say, Yeah, but does a better sense of smell. So I agree with that. But today, we don’t have any equipment, we don’t have any dog to validate the production, because it depends also, on your sensitivity threshold of the dog. But yes, is the best way to do it today. What would during the validation phase, we tested on 100 dogs to check if someone was some dogs were acting on the chip on the blank one. And we didn’t notice any, any marks or anything on the, during the training process? And so it’s why we were confident to search a product like
Unknown Speaker 17:18
that. Yeah. Yeah, well, I know, the first thing I did when I got my hands on them was put one out with owner one out with a non target odor and one out with target odor and run both of my dogs through it and, you know, see what they did. And then immediately went to the one with target odor and happily ignored the other two. And I was like, okay, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s dumb enough to publish a research paper on, you know, looks pretty.
Unknown Speaker 17:43
Yeah, use an ad, you know, when you are a small company, you cannot always do like, researches like, big one with big in our city. So, you know, like trial and error and to test it on the field. It’s, um, it’s the best hands up.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 17:57
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So okay. And then the next question we’ve got is, how do you ensure that the gets sent to collects the target odor and not other odors? If it’s out in the environment? So for example, like if I’ve impregnated the tube with, let’s call it, let’s say, bat, because that’s, that’s the one I’m working on currently. And then I go and place it out in the environment two hours before the search. Does it now smell like bat plus Ace Hardware? Or does it still? What is that?
Unknown Speaker 18:29
Yeah, no, I will say we did two things First, by design. So by design, when once you impregnates the tube, the tube will start to release molecules. And these molecules we kind of protects the tubes from the pollution from outside. But when the tube is new, it’s a blank one. This one can be polluted really easily is why you you have to pay attention when you use the blank tubes to be quick when you do them pronation to when you manipulate the tube to my degree with gloves with pliers, and I would say or less of your assignment, this is key. But as I said, by design, the tube is designed to avoid any contamination, once impregnated, and I like to take this analogy with an a way, when you drive on the on the highway, we all go in the same direction. So molecules are the same, the molecules are going from the tube to the outside. So it’s like on your way we go to in one direction. If the ozone molecules wants to, to come in when you are on the highway, it’s really difficult because all the cars are asked to go on the side and to to let one car coming from the other direction. So it’s why it’s the same principle with the molecules. The molecules are kind of big and they are protected, evade, protect the chips from the pollution. This is the design and the other stuff we validated. We have validated this One with the GCMS. So what we did, we create the tube with tobacco, and we went on site. And we trained, we simulate, like kind of training outside. And after we checked again that you want the GCMS, to see if we noticed any changes in the odor profile. And after similar training, we didn’t notice any change. So it’s how we validated it gets into.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 20:26
Okay, cool. So next step, what, what limitations do we need to be aware of with using get sent tubes like, especially in the conservation world? Is there anything that we need to be really aware of as far as how they’re used? That may be tricky for us?
Unknown Speaker 20:45
Yeah, for me, very free points of attention. The first one is blank to manipulation. You know, you have to pay attention when you manipulate as a blank shoe, especially when you are outside because it’s, it’s a full of order outside. So you have to be fast when you put your tube close to the target order. So this is a way to manage, you cannot stay outside with your pliers, the tubing suppliers and to discuss with other trainers to discuss about how I can play the tube, you open the tube, you put it in the in close to the target, although this is really key to pay attention is your user point of attention is in pronation settings. What we noticed, most of the time that people are not using the right city, I would say the right container in terms of material as the right also the way of the container is closed. The volume of the container as well is really important. So this is key. But you know, we are always welcome to discuss with our users to design the right prediction settings. And and the set point, you know is a way of the two weeks and created. It’s a time the time is key. Because when your dog is used to work on the set and concentration, if you change his concentration, the dog will notice it. So it means you will notice a change of behavior. So it’s why you need to adjust if you want to replicate exactly the same amount of other than the than the dog we’re trying before, you need to pay attention to this type. In other age, after one day, you get the same amount of photo. But for some, you need to get to go to two days or even 26 hours, you know what you need to adjust? And yeah, MVCC
Kayla Fratt (KF) 22:45
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And that I think kind of comes back to some of the limitations that I was, you know, I was finding and you and I were talking about during pre interviews, and I was talking about some other handlers who are struggling. You know, I It sounds like a lot of the problems, it’s not necessarily a limitation of the chemistry of the tube. It’s more sometimes this practical or pragmatic issue of okay, how if we’re trying to use this with a live animal, how long can we realistically put that live animal in a really small container with, you know, do these like ideal impregnation settings? And that’s, you know, that’s that’s a good question and something we really need to be dealing with. But it’s not so much that like, Chemically speaking the tube is. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 23:30
yeah, exactly. Because, you know, the tube, tried to replicate the same amount of other than the other source. So this is key, and we are not doing like, cotton goes where at the beginning, we have a high concentration and after a very low, for us, it’s quite stable over time. And it’s why if you don’t reach as the right time of appreciation, you know, sometimes dogs can struggle to find the job or to to manage. But this is due to as a sensitivity threshold of a dog. It’s why, for example, when you you walk on the workstation, especially, it’s like you cannot catch during one hour, you can catch only 20 minutes, you need to bring down the sensitivity traditions of your dog before training your dog on this new order. If you can only catch, especially during 20 minutes. You know what I mean? Does it make sense?
Kayla Fratt (KF) 24:26
Yeah, I think so. And I think this is actually the problem when I first was introducing the get scent tubes to the dogs with action for cheetahs in Kenya, I think we actually impregnated the tubes for too long, which is probably a common mistake where you assume oh, doing it for longer, how can it possibly be a bad idea that sounds great, you know, with more odor. And in retrospect, it seems pretty clear that of course, if the dogs are used to a certain threshold there, that’s what they’re going to go for. And both of the dogs, you know, walked right over the tubes and we were able to kind of go back and I’d rework it. But it was probably actually that I had left the tubes in with the Scott for
Unknown Speaker 25:07
when it’s too long is the same, you know, and, you know, Dr. Hall, from the Texas Tech University, a lot of good results with his team about concentration and how the dog behaves in front of different concentrations. And, and, you know, even if it’s small or big, you know, you know, dogs, can you take a drink from a certain range, but if it’s outside the range, it’s really tough for the dog to hit the target. So it’s why concentration is key. So yeah, I recommend all the audience to to read those research, it’s really interesting. And so, we learnt a lot with with his research, and also we are working with him, you know, to to understand, or so, you know, the range of concentration, we’d get to choose.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 26:00
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, and you know, it just thinking of an apt analogy, and I can’t remember, if we’ve done that paper as a science highlight on the show yet, or I know we’ve talked about it previously. But what I was kind of thinking of, as you’re explaining this is, for example, here in the US, we have a lot of deer. And I’m really used to seeing a white tailed deer or a mule deer or even a black tailed deer and saying, oh my gosh, okay, there it is. There’s a deer. And then when I first got to Kenya, and I saw Deke Deke, which are significantly smaller than my dogs, you know, my first thought was dik Dik, I knew what it was, but I didn’t quite put it in the deer category until I kind of got used to the idea of seeing a deer that was that size. And I can imagine for a dog’s potentially odor is something similar, it’s kind of like they’re used to something of a certain size or a certain criteria. So even though morphologically addicting, and a deer look really similarly, and I can like recognize that I don’t immediately think deer when I see dictate until I get used to that, and I had to get trained for it.
Unknown Speaker 27:02
Some analogy? Yeah.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 27:05
So when I was preparing this podcast and doing a little bit of research for some science highlights, I did come across a study that I did I want to talk to you about, and I know you’ve already heard a little bit about it. So it’s from the morel thesis from University of Otago that said, that their guts tubes were unable to absorb and or emit consistent and measurable VOCs from the headspace of Lyle Pema, which is a genus of frogs, as measured by their GCMs. So I know you and I had talked a little bit about about this. But again, I like it’s not that I’m trying to do a gotcha for you, or anything like that. But I wanted to, I felt like when I found that study, I couldn’t do this interview without asking you about it.
Unknown Speaker 27:48
Yeah, first of all, we have to explain that the study is not a peer review study. So it has been done during a graduation program by our students. So our team reviewed the study, and we noticed many shortcuts that we can take first as a scientist. So yeah, those results are in opposition with what we, we found in our labs, but also, from the feedback that we got from our users. It’s why, you know, we have decided to publish our review. So soon, it will be available on our website. So in the meantime, if someone wants to get it, they can just reach out to me. Now we are in touch with university, we are in touch with the teachers of the author of the students. And now we have a plan to redo the study because they understand they understood our consents. And so it’s, it’s what we are doing with them. So but you know, with this one was a lesson lesson learned for us. Because what we discussed previously, we we have to share more data to our users. So you know, in the past, we were a bit afraid because it’s too scientific. And it’s too many, many, many things too many ipotesi sensor and so we say okay, no, we have decided to redo our website and to create a page dedicated to research to share information. But,
Kayla Fratt (KF) 29:23
yeah, well and I think you know, when you and I have talked about this paper a little bit as well, a lot of it comes back to the same stuff that we were talking about earlier in this episode, as far as you know, the initial impregnation of the tubes and making sure that you’re doing that well. And again, some of the challenges that do come up when you’re using when you’re trying to work with an endangered live animal.
Unknown Speaker 29:46
Yeah, if you remember what I said before about you know, the three points of points of attention, you will see if you read this study from from the student, from the students, you will see that you know, it’s uses a blank mind repudiation of the blank to manipulation, you will see the appreciation settings and you will see some appreciation and sensitivity, you will see all this issue in one study. So and
Unknown Speaker 30:10
yeah, so, yeah, so it’s you know, it’s it’s a good learning lesson for all of us to make sure we very carefully read the instructions. And yeah, if something’s not working you know, kind of get curious about that rather than assuming that the dog is
Unknown Speaker 30:29
friend we, we try we know if something you know, you don’t understand you don’t understand why is the dog is behaving differently. You can send us to us we can do GCMs we can discuss we know, just reach out on this one, nobody reach out and you know, and now we have this paper like that. So it’s a bit sad for everyone, I think.
Unknown Speaker 30:49
Yeah, yeah. Well, like I know when I was first in Kenya and struggling a little bit getting those dogs to work with get sent tubes. You know, I reached out to I don’t remember it was you or if it was whoever runs your social media, and we
Kayla Fratt (KF) 31:02
we. Yeah, and we got it. Yeah, we got it sorted out. And those dogs are pretty happily using get sent tapes which and they were finding it particularly useful not for the cheetahs, but actually for some of their off target species that they want to ensure the dogs maintain off of some particularly care call because they’re when you get into the smaller cat species and Africa, those, those cats are harder to find there are fewer of them in rehab centers. versus you know, finding lion leopard and cheetah is pretty easy. So I think they’re mostly using the get scent tubes now actually, not to not to train the dogs to find cheetah, but to ensure that they’re not finding Caracal.
Kayla Fratt 31:44
Listen, you and your dog are already canine conservationists by listening to the show. So go ahead and show it off join the club, check out our brand new merch store, which is located at Canine conservationists.org/shop. It’s stocked with stickers and magnets and bags and shirts, we’re adding new designs all the time. If you’re an artist wanting to collaborate, just we split profits and are eager to hear from us reach out at Canine [email protected] We also offer all of our webinars on demand through our store. So you can check out our puppy raising webinar alerts and changes of behavior, introducing a target odor, as well as seeking sourcing and alerting. We’re also planning to add new webinars to this all the time. So if you’ve got a request for a webinar, or you’re a practitioner hoping to contribute a webinar, again, we’re going to split our profits with you and you can reach out to us at Canine [email protected] Let’s keep the learning going.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 32:37
Yeah, and again, I think it seems like the biggest issues that a lot of us are having in the conservation dog field is just figuring out how especially again, it seems like a lot of the people who are struggling are either using these, either working with these like ultra endangered live animals or ultra endangered live plants, where it’s really hard to figure out how to get them into a small container in an ethical way and keep them there for long enough to properly impregnate these tubes, I was just talking to someone who’s got a project with a target that’s primarily underground and live and because it’s so endangered, you can’t dig it up. So you know, and she and I were kind of brainstorming like, Okay, if we were going to use some get sent tubes, how would you do this, and I should, I should just give her your email, maybe I already did. Because, you know, I was like, I don’t really know, I don’t know, if just putting it on top of the dirt above where it’s where this plant is would do the trick or not.
Unknown Speaker 33:32
It can work but you need because you can appreciate all those in open up your own hands. But it means that you won’t collect the same amount of molecules that you can collect in the closed one. So you know, and it’s why you need to adapt after your training to explain to your dog that it’s a low concentration. So it means that you need to bring down the sensitivity tuition of your dorm to train on low concentration, you know, it’s what is not only get into is a full training, we need to have a holistic approach to say before the training with your dog captured, we will get into on open up your mind, we need to bring down as the dog sensitivity threshold. You know what I mean? Does it make sense? Or
Kayla Fratt (KF) 34:17
I think so. Yeah. And well, I think part of the problem that they were running into is the get sent. And here’s here’s a question that I wasn’t planning on throwing at you. Have you had people use their get sent tubes for their initial training with the dog, because I think that was kind of their plan is actually so their, their concern isn’t so much that the dog is starting at level A and they need to bring them down to level B in order to use the tubes, it’s that the tubes are going to be step one, and then hopefully they can take the dog out into the real environment and kind of they have a couple of confirmed locations where they could then reward the dog and help the dog transition from the tubes to the real environment but it’s still going to be a limited and kind of arduous journey which is not uncommon not uncommon in the world where you know if I if I want to trade one of my dogs to work on cheetah for next time I go to Kenya, but dogs aren’t really obviously aren’t going to get to experience live wild cheetahs, Scot until we’ve already been working with something that’s been in the freezer but desiccated or it gets sent tube or something. So have you had people use that where where they start with get sent tubes from
Unknown Speaker 35:23
most of the time, users will use gates and tubes from printing the dog on the new odo. Because you saw some of most of the time, you don’t have access to the other. But yeah, imagine for COVID-19 They didn’t have access to the order or so because it was considered like danger rules. And we collected all those in hospital. And in also in some like we could we could pay for labs and so on. So it was so restricted. So but they used to get a job to imprint the dog on this new order, for example. And but not most of the time, even you know, with what I can say like your standard products like narcotics, like explosives, the US gets into to imprint on this new products.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 36:11
Yeah, I mean, it makes sense to me. And again, it’s like in conservation, we’re already so used to having to deal with these, these frustrating workarounds. So again, something frozen and dehydrated or dehydrated. Yeah, one of the two, sometimes both, or we’re working with zoo samples, which also don’t quite mimic live, why are wild samples perfectly? So it’s, it seems to me like based on what you’re saying, it would probably be better to use the get certain tubes with the target that you really actually want the dog to find versus having to deal with dehydrated frozen zoo samples, because that’s what you’re able to get to change your profile. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s kind of our understanding is that it tends to, and you know, it also could just be a tool that’s a component along with everything else, maybe you do want to use all three that that doesn’t seem like a bad idea. And then I’ve got a question from a colleague, Natalie, who kind of asked how, and we can go as detailed or not into this as you want, because I know a lot of it is likely to go over my head, is if you were to run the tubes on a mass spectrometer? How do you actually do that? And how do you kind of how do you deal with the saturation about are with the mass spec, and how does it degrade.
Unknown Speaker 37:36
So just for your information, we are doing everyday mass spec analysis. So it’s, you know, our machine is full every day. So we are running a lot of analysis. And what we use, we use our internal methods that we have developed to analyze gates and chips. And this method will be available soon our website for everyone. But in the meantime, if someone wants a record, we can share it. No issue is that. So we use if I need to explain all the concept of mass spec, I will spend another podcast with you. But you know, we we have, we have a specific method to analyze it. But you know, because it’s really, I would say the mass spec you you put a needle in a vial, you extract the order, and you put it in the machine. And the machine will tell you what is inside. So it’s the principle. But yeah, after we can, we can go in details. But
Kayla Fratt (KF) 38:48
yeah, yeah, no, and I think that’s probably enough for us is if if people are really interested, you’re working on getting a lot of that stuff published. And you know that if you do have access to a mass spec, and you do have these questions, and you have enough understanding, then you can go ahead and read it. But
Unknown Speaker 39:04
no, we just run a few weeks ago, a lot of analysis for a research institute in in Europe to compare a plant with a disease and the plant without the disease. So we knew we didn’t know at the beginning, which one was with the disease and the other one without and we checked, so we compare three chips analyze with the mass spec, with and without, and we check the differences. So and you can see the differences because very different molecules, most sometimes it’s you have more molecules or more intense in terms of concentration, and less so and you can see clearly the difference.
Unknown Speaker 39:48
Okay, yeah, yeah, that’s really great to know. And yeah, it’s always it’s always a question and it’s always a challenge for us to figure out exactly what the dogs are sniffing and things Actually, so
Unknown Speaker 40:02
best scenario is to do a comparison between, you know, when you have when you think you have your dog and on the other one when you don’t have, and you compare. And if you see differences, it means that we raised something in terms of saturation, because you mentioned mentioned before the saturation. For us, it’s, you know, it’s really difficult in this conduct condition to saturate the tube. You see the tubes, it’s around one gram, and you can absorb four times the weight of the tube. So it means it’s huge. And, you know, we voc it’s really difficult to reach this level. You can do it with specifically with liquid, but not necessarily with, with gas. And yes, so it’s why, you know, when you do the GCMS analysis, and if you use what we call SPM II mode, most of the times the saturation that you can notice on the machine doesn’t come from the gets into, but it comes from the machine itself, because you saturate the fiber, which collects the molecules to put it on the machine.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 41:17
Okay, that yeah, that helps me understand a lot that, yeah, just, I know, like cash, I remember this back from when I was in, like my undergraduate organic chemistry class, just the amount of contamination that you need to be worried about in the lab. And, you know, with my very minimal experience with the GCMS, what that can look like. So that’s such a good point. And, yeah, hopefully helps make anyone else who’s, you know, looking at this from more of an understanding of the molecular chemistry, you know, hopefully it helps make sense to them. And, you know, again, if they’ve got further questions, like, I’m just not going to be the person to ask you that anyway. But you make it really easy to reach out to you. So
Unknown Speaker 42:00
you can also come into our lab, everything is open, you can visit, I will explain on the interlab always works, you know, you’re all welcome. Is a very nice country, you know, so
Unknown Speaker 42:17
I was just gonna say honestly,
Unknown Speaker 42:20
I’m looking at VSAs, next day, next week.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 42:25
Yeah, well, you know, that also makes sense. You know, one of the things that he also you and I have talked about a little bit online is, there’s a little bit of suspicion. And you know, one of the things I was really concerned about with not concerned about, but really wanted to make sure I did well with this, this episode was making sure we weren’t just doing a free ad forget center. But, you know, also realistically, I think if you were in this trying to get rich quick, you’d probably be working in NF T’s or crypto not with, not with detection dog handlers. So while this technology is really exciting, and something that we’re all really grateful for, and excited to see improving, it doesn’t make sense to me to really be hyper skeptical of the idea that you’re just in this for the money because if you were I mean, I would I think you haven’t done enough market research on the amount of free cash that detection dog handlers have to throw.
Unknown Speaker 43:19
I really hope your company succeed.
Unknown Speaker 43:23
Unknown Speaker 43:26
you know, we give love this one because, you know, we, when we, when we are inventors, when we have an ID, we want to put it on the market and we want to be decided to be used by everyone. And, you know, it’s clear, we didn’t do it for the money. As you said, we are not in the crypto crypto business, we are in the detection business. So it’s super interesting for us. You know, it’s as we learn everyday, this is important. It’s important for us as well. So you know, it’s part of so of what you want in your life. So, and for us, it’s great even if you are not by millionaire or billionaire, we are happy with what about what we are doing. So yeah, yeah. We are not trying to oversell the product, you know, sometimes Yeah. Seems that way, but it’s not.
Unknown Speaker 44:17
Yeah, I mean, and I think OS detection dog handlers can understand that. Because when we’re out here bragging about our dogs, again, it’s not because we’re expecting, I do not expect canine conservationists to make me a young millionaire or an old millionaire or any sort of
Kayla Fratt (KF) 44:34
I’m hoping to be able to retire. Like that’s the goal that we’re setting here. Yeah, so I think we’re a lot of us are in the same position as much as we want to brag about our dogs and be excited about what they can do and talk about, you know, some of the incredible achievements that they have. We’re not doing it because we’re expecting a huge financial payoff. You know, maybe we do hope to get some clients out of that, but it’s, you know, there’s not really a If you wanted to lie and get rich quick, neither you nor I, as I think in the right field to make that happen. Yeah. Do you have anything else you wanted to bring up? Anything? I forgot to ask you anything you wanted to circle back to?
Unknown Speaker 45:17
No, I think it’s a good.
Unknown Speaker 45:21
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I know, it’s been a little bit of a saga trying to get this episode recorded. But I’m really excited to get it out and get it publicized. And if people have questions I, you’re pretty easy to find online. But you want to tell people where they can find you online and ask any further questions about what we’ve talked about?
Unknown Speaker 45:40
Yeah, well, if we can use our websites is the best way to contact us. We are also available on social media like Instagram, Facebook, so it’s also a good way. So and, and maybe when you will publish the episode, you can share my email, my personal email address, and we will be I’ll be more than happy to answer all the questions, right?
Unknown Speaker 46:00
Yeah, I’ll make sure to include all of that in the show notes. I know you guys have been pretty active on I’m seeing you all the time on Instagram and LinkedIn and all over the place. So I’ll drop all of those links into the show notes. And if anyone’s got more questions, definitely feel free to I’m always happy to talk about my firsthand experience with the tubes. I’ve used them with several dogs and several target odors at this point. But if you’ve got more of a chemistry questions, don’t ask me ask Greg.
Kayla Fratt (KF) 46:28
And, yeah, so for everyone else at home. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you learned a lot and you’re feeling inspired to get outside and be a canine conservationist and whatever way suits your passions and your skill set. You can find Show Notes donate canine conservationists, pick up some sweet merch and or join our Patreon over at Canine conservationists.org. Until next time,
Transcribed by https://otter.ai